Cat Sci writes:
Maybe you can explain to me why the term "Atheism" is the word that you prefer to use?
First off, thanks for moving the discussion on beyond the trite.
I use the word atheist because it's the only one we have to describe a lack of belief in god. But I'd prefer it if there was no such word. You know, the idea that there is no word for a lack of belief in fairies and leprechauns. To me the idea of a god - at least the theistic kind - is simply bizarre
What's wrong with the word "Agnosticism"?
To describe what? It doesn't work when describing belief. It only works when describing what it is intended for - knowledge. The first is an emotional state, the second is factual information.
And I'm sticking within belief systems and not talking about knowledge.
Then you are attempting to change the meaning of words.
Atheism has been redefined over the years and people have been moving from calling themselves agnostics to calling themselves atheists.
Has it? it's not a hard concept to grasp is it? It's hard to define it another way. I suspect those that called themselves agnostics were actually atheists all along but the social stigma of saying it has declined. It was always a false position.
I think its for shock and impact. People gasp. Why do you think it is?
I think you may have hit on why eveyone here is struggling so hard with a very simple concept. There is absolutely no shock value of declaring yourself to be an atheist in the UK. To the extent that it never happens. I might as well declare myslelf male. Atheists are not a shocking thing. From what I can gather, that is not the situation in the USA.
People these days, like you, say that atheism is simply a lack of a positive belief in god and that it is not necessarily a positive claim of the non-existence of god. I agree that it can work for that usage, but I don't understand why it is preferable?
Preferrable to what? i am not agnsotic, I do not believe in god.
Atheism used to be a positive position that god does not exist. It was not simply a lack of belief in god, that was agnosticism.
Atheism, always was, and is, a lack of belief in god(s). No more, no less. The definition was forced by the existence of believers. The term, in most atheist's eyes is redundant. In my case it is a positive statement, but in the case of those that say they don't know, it's purely definitional - they are default atheists.
Believes that there is a god = theism
Believes that there is no god = atheism
Doesn't believe either way = agnosticism
Sure, except 'doesn't believe either way' normally resolved to 'don't know'. Which, in my opinion, was a polite excuse for an embarassing lack of belief.
Now you're coming along and saying that theists believe in god and everyone else is an atheist.
How post-modern of me.
And there are no agnostics. Why? Is it just an effort to be more inclusive?
No, it's just the meaning of words.
Isn't that you? Or do you take the positive position that god does not exist?
No it's not me. My position is that knowledge of god is impossible - or at least it has been so far - so we are all agnostic. But I go further and say that I also believe that god does not exist. All we 'know', is whether we believe or not.
Doesn't removing agnosticism from the spectrum and insisting on a theism/atheism dichotomy only add confusion to the issue?
No, it simplifies things. Two positions instead of three.
What's the reason for changing the definitions of these words? Honestly, I don't get it.
I have not changed any definitions. The words have been misapplied, misunderstood and misused.
Well, expect for atheism being equated with immorality. That's not longer apt.
It seems to be in some parts of the world. But that can't change the meaning of words only their perception. When Huxley spoke about being agnostic, he was actually declaring his atheism in couched, intellectual terms.
People typically go: Well, that's what the root means. theism = belief in god therefore a-theism is without a belief in god. But that M-W page shows that the greek word is atheos, which is godlessness. So that is a positive position and not just a lack of a positive position.
Dunno. Don't care much. We know what we mean in English
Regarding the topic, I think it is that equating atheism with immorality that lead people to want to deny office to atheists.
Agreed. It time we stood up and changed that ignorant viewpoint. It's not clear to me why an agnostic should be seen as any more moral though - an agnostic does not believe in god.
If someone was self-proclaimly immoral or wicked, I would have a problem having them in office as well. Turns out the term atheism isn't really the right word for that, but alas.
:-)
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