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Author Topic:   Jihadists must die, --- but our real enemies are the Qur’an and Bible.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 375 (758967)
06-06-2015 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 3:32 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
This discussion is so bizarre I had no idea of getting anywhere near it and I probably shouldn't now either.
But I HAVE to say that imputing a rejection of gay marriage to religion is historically bonkers. NO CULTURE EVER even considered gay marriage; it's a complete innovation that flies in the fact of plain COMMON SENSE, having NOTHING to do with religion though it is being made a very convenient excuse for attacking Christianity in particular.
Also, the subjugation of women goes back to the Fall when Eve was cursed with it for her disobedience. ALL CULTURES SINCE THEN prove the truth of the Fall without even knowing about it, by their subjugation of women to the rule of men. It is ONLY CHRISTIANITY that has countered that effect of the Fall at all: Jesus accepted women into His company of followers although in the context of the misogyny of His time and place that would have cost Him status. Even His male disciples chided Him for His acceptance of women. God gave women the honor of discovering the risen Christ before any of the men, and because of the prejudice against women they wouldn't believe them but had to go see for themselves.
And by the way it was Paul who said that for believers in Christ there is now no male nor female but all are one in Christ.
Consider what a huge cultural framework against women we're talking about here and get SOME perspective on why it took so long to make any real difference, and that difference finally came ONLY through Christian influence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 3:32 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 80 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 96 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 10:52 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 375 (758989)
06-06-2015 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Greatest I am
06-06-2015 5:25 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Bare lilnks are bad debate form. It is your job to sketch out the argument yourself.
I watched some of the video and found it to present a false idea of the Bible. I'm sure men DID misuse the Bible against women, but that's a characteristic of fallen man, not the Bible's fault. Yes, women were made FOR man but that is not subjugation, it's role and not oppressive in itself. When God later says your husband will rule over you, THAT's the punishment for the Fall. There is no being ruled or subjugated in simply being made FOR man.
ABE: You are apparently right about the suffragettes' objection to the Bible, however misguided, but there's plenty in the Bible that should support women's rights, and I'm sure some did use it rightly for that purpose. /ABE
If you aren't a believer, which you obviously aren't, you'll get all of this wrong as the video does and nothing I say will make a difference.
Your other link doesn't deserve even the glance I gave it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Greatest I am, posted 06-06-2015 5:25 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:45 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 375 (759003)
06-07-2015 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 9:45 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
So being owned is not subjugation or oppression.
In this fallen world it is very hard to consider that it might be a desirable state. Think of being owned by someone who loves you with complete devotion and a true appreciation of your qualities, wants only what makes you happy and fulfilled, and furthers your talents and abilities -- which is what the word "husband" means. Devoting yourself to that kind of husband would be sheer joy.
Unfortunately fallenness has warped us all so we'll never know how blessed we'd all have been under the original Creation.
And by the way, "my" religion explains everything and everybody, including you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 9:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 77 of 375 (759009)
06-07-2015 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Greatest I am
06-07-2015 4:11 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
Faith
Good.
Explain why you see a fallen world when your God is said to produce all things perfect.
First of all we derive it from the Fall as reported in the Bible. I wouldn't have "seen" it until I knew about that, but as a matter of fact when I first understood the idea it was a great revelation to me that explains all the misery in this world, that otherwise had no explanation until then. How else understand all the suffering, the wars, the cruelty, the abuse of each other, the basic selfishness in all of us? To me the Fall makes sense of this entire miserable world. If this is a "perfect" world I wouldn't want to see an imperfect one.
God created all things perfect; humanity brought about the Fall.
Also explain why the myth Christianity usurped from the Jews, that saw Eden as man's elevation, and changed that elevation to the fall you think you see.
Well, the Jews don't understand their own scriptures, as the New Testament reveals. They missed their Messiah and they miss everything else as well. All of their scriptures point to Jesus as Jesus Himself said, but they think the story of Israel is all about them. Some of it is about them, they will play a big part at the very end, and eventually they will have their eyes opened to see their Messiah as well but for now they are the blind leading the blind.
I also track markers for evil. All those I track are the best we have ever enjoyed. Death by violence, theft, rape, slavery, all these are statistically at the best level we have ever enjoyed.
I have NO idea what that means. As I say above, I think all those things are explained only by the Fall, which deprived us of our original life in God and made sinners of us all. In the original created world none of those miseries could have existed at any "level," and when Jesus comes again to restore all things they will never exist again for those who follow Him.
Where do you see a fallen world and why do you not see God's kingdom here the way I do?
See above.
Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will
precede you. Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is
outside of you. [Those who] become acquainted with [themselves]
will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you
will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living
Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."
That is very far from the spirit of the Bible so I assume it is a Gnostic text. Are you aware that Gnosticism is condemned in the Bible? The Sons of God are those who put all their trust in Christ for salvation through His death to pay for our sins.
Why do you live in such poverty?
Why do you deny God his perfect works?
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
HIS work is certainly perfect, but sin is OUR work and we've made a mess of this planet because of it.
I could ask you: Why do you persist in sin when you could be cleansed and become one of the sons of God?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Greatest I am, posted 06-07-2015 4:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 06-07-2015 10:28 PM Faith has replied
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 06-08-2015 1:39 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 94 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 375 (759012)
06-07-2015 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Coyote
06-07-2015 10:28 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
And the idea of a "Fall" or "original sin" that condemns all of mankind to some sort of bad karma is the most ridiculous and evil idea ever cooked up, out of whole cloth, by the shaman class.
So war, murder, exploitation, abuse, rape, slavery, etc etc etc aren't our fault?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Coyote, posted 06-07-2015 10:28 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 06-08-2015 8:00 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 95 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 10:46 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 375 (759014)
06-07-2015 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by anglagard
06-07-2015 11:18 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
"Same sex relationships" or "unions" even officialized in some sense, are not marriage. And so what if a few existed in the morally rotten Roman Empire? Nero mocked the institution by marrying some homosexuals. I'm talking about the vast majority of cultures on earth for pete's sake, where such a thing was never heard of and would have been repudiated, WITHOUT RELIGION HAVING A SAY IN ANY OF IT. Which has nothing to do with homosexual unions without marriage which have always existed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:18 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:37 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 375 (759017)
06-07-2015 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by anglagard
06-07-2015 11:37 PM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
There are no contradictions in the Bible and there isn't a contradiction in my post either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anglagard, posted 06-07-2015 11:37 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by anglagard, posted 06-08-2015 12:05 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 375 (759020)
06-08-2015 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by anglagard
06-08-2015 12:05 AM


Re: The End of the End of Faith
I'm sure I could have said it better, but even an "officialized" union could just be an arrangement like the civil union some of us have wanted instead of marriage. Beyond that I meant to say so what if a few "MARRIAGES" in the proper sense existed....
The whole point is you are talking about very rare events in abnormal cultures and I was referring to the vast majority of human cultures in all times and places. And you also used language like "relationships" and "unions" which do not imply actual marriage and which nobody has doubted have always existed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by anglagard, posted 06-08-2015 12:05 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 107 of 375 (759063)
06-08-2015 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Greatest I am
06-08-2015 12:50 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
What if delusion is what YOU have? You are making some awfully dogmatic assertions about what other people think without a clue as to how they arrived at their convictions. What makes your Gnosticism any more respectable or less delusional? You don't seem to be aware that all you're doing is preferring your own opinion to others' opinions;.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Greatest I am, posted 06-08-2015 12:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 6:59 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 375 (759111)
06-09-2015 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by MrHambre
06-08-2015 1:34 PM


Re: respect vs tolerance
The marginalization of the LGBTQ community involves a lot more than the widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate against them; what ends the marginalization is passing laws to make it illegal, not just convincing people to abandon their false beliefs.
Just wondering if you are aware that if gay marriage is made legal across the nation, which it most likely will be when SCOTUS rules on it, that it's Christians who will be marginalized? Required to honor gay marriage which God forbids. There is no "widespread belief that it's okay to discriminate" against them, there is simply OUR obligation to obey God and we will although we'll be driven out of business, fined, or even possibly imprisoned for preaching what the Bible says. Just wondering if that's okay with you the way it is with almost everybody else here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by MrHambre, posted 06-08-2015 1:34 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by MrHambre, posted 06-09-2015 6:34 AM Faith has replied
 Message 137 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:26 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 117 of 375 (759113)
06-09-2015 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by MrHambre
06-09-2015 6:34 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers. Anyway, thank you for your answer.
Oh by the way, No Christians I know have ever thrown a stone at a sinner, unless you count preaching salvation to them. But if gay marriage passes it will be Christians getting stoned, just as your post lobbed a stone at me.
May God forgive you.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by MrHambre, posted 06-09-2015 6:34 AM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 7:17 AM Faith has replied
 Message 120 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:51 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 375 (759117)
06-09-2015 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by vimesey
06-09-2015 7:17 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Funny how unbelievers think they know so much better what Jesus meant than us Bible believers.
Don't try to pull that.
What, you mean the truth? I know what the Bible means, unbelievers don't. That's the simple truth. There are lots of so-called "Christian" denominations these days that preach a false idea of the Bible as well.
Jesus FORGAVE sin, as we are all to do, HE DID NOT DENY IT IS SIN, as so many today want to do. He even paid for our sins by His own death that we'd otherwise be condemned for in an eternity of Hell. He died for us sinners and you all want to say Oh there is no sin, no need for Him to die, and worse, you try to put those words in HIS mouth. It is not loving the sinner to pretend he's not a sinner in need of salvation. I'm a sinner God saved. I don't throw stones at other sinners, I want them to be saved too.
If you are relying on your book to justify treating some people as less than other people, then you get to be challenged on what the book says.
But that's a lie. We do not treat anyone as less than anyone else. A sinner is a sinner in need of salvation. But what you are all doing is pretending sin is not sin and legally forcing us to accept that lie. When sin is legally redefined as an oppressed class this world has already gone to Hell. Hell rules, and Hell wants to shut up the Christians because we have the bad habit of getting sinners saved out of their clutches. Oh not the "nice" Christians, the ones you all like, who think it's mean to call sin sin and think Jesus' love pretends sin doesn't exist. Ugh what a sham. Jesus DIED to pay for sin. He doesn't take sin lightly. It cost the Son of God His life and God forsook Him on the cross for us. But you all conspire to keep sinners from being saved while you condemn the messengers of the salvation they need --that you all need.
You don't get a free pass to do what the hell you like, just because your particular interpretation (being the one espoused by your particular Christian denomination out of around 20,000 of them) of your book says it's fine.
Obvious the truth isn't getting any free passes these days. The Lie is winning. Sad days for planet earth. The devil has been plotting this for years, decades, centuries. He's got us where he wants us now and all the ignorant unbelievers on his side. Wow, what a coup. I pray you will come to see the truth and be saved too, though I'm sure it just makes you more indignant to hear that.
The moment you treat one other human being in a shitty way, because of what you believe about your book, you are gonna get questioned, and legitimately so.
No matter that that's a big fat lie about what we are doing. The big fat lie is winning and going to send millions to Hell as you all applaud. For now. The applause isn't going to last.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 7:17 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 8:47 AM Faith has replied
 Message 139 by Greatest I am, posted 06-09-2015 7:39 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 375 (759124)
06-09-2015 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
06-09-2015 7:51 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Word magic is a great thing isn't it? Call anybody a lawbreaker and you can punish them without any qualms. That's really the history of the world in a nutshell if you think about it. Call Jesus a lawbreaker you can crucify Him. etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 06-09-2015 7:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by saab93f, posted 06-09-2015 8:18 AM Faith has replied
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 Message 131 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2015 5:59 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 375 (759128)
06-09-2015 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by saab93f
06-09-2015 8:18 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
Word magic is a great thing isn't it? Call anybody a lawbreaker and you can punish them without any qualms. That's really the history of the world in a nutshell if you think about it. Call Jesus a lawbreaker you can crucify Him. etc.
Boo-effing-hoo Faith. Just because of popularity you have been bullies who without regret have killed, maimed and tortured those who dont BELIEVE like you do.
Not so. Bible believers have a million times more often been the victims of religious persecution. Learn some history.
Now that the tables have taken a slightest turn (ie. you cannot kill atheists at will but have to retort to just hating and condemning) you act like primadonnas whose toes have been stepped on.
'
When did Bible believers make a practice of killing atheists. You've swallowed a ton of lies.
Did you decide to be a heterosexual or was it something you were born as? I was apparently born hetero but some of my friends were not. Calling them sinners is way worse than calling a believer delusional because unlike belief, you cannot outgrow what you are.
I was born with a ton of sin in me of all kinds, including tons of sinful heterosexual inclinations, aberrations, perversions and whatnot. Such inborn sin exerts a powerful influence on a person, and sometimes demons get into the act and make it worse, which I've often suspected in my own case. And that's not counting the inborn tendency to every other kind of sin. Jesus came to save us from ALL of it, but pretending you aren't a sinner cuts you off from His salvation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 122 by saab93f, posted 06-09-2015 8:18 AM saab93f has not replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 375 (759132)
06-09-2015 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by vimesey
06-09-2015 8:47 AM


Re: "But the second stone, up for grabs."
When I'm required to sin against God in order to "treat people right" by pretending sin isn't sin I'm surprised the planet doesn't just implode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by vimesey, posted 06-09-2015 8:47 AM vimesey has replied

Replies to this message:
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