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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 496 of 524 (877212)
06-08-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 493 by Percy
06-08-2020 11:35 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
Percy writes:

One core point is that complaint systems do not work, especially for minorities:


If you are looking for someone to blame, why not blame Amy Klobuchar who served as the prosecutor for Hennepin County, which includes Minneapolis during the time the officer who pressed on George Floyd's neck had many complaints filed against him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 493 by Percy, posted 06-08-2020 11:35 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Percy, posted 06-08-2020 11:23 PM Kleinman has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19840
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 497 of 524 (877232)
06-08-2020 11:16 PM


Police
This is John Oliver’s latest show called simply Police. It explains, among other things, why police shoot so many people. The reasons are multiple, but the one I’ll mention is that the police have been tasked with too many responsibilities. Whether you’re a criminal or a speeder or mentally ill or homeless or involved in a domestic dispute or needing a wellness check or having a loud party or whatever, it is a man with a gun who shows up. We need to invest in more diverse and appropriate service departments for our cities and towns and less in a one-organization-does-it-all police department.

The whole show is worth watching. Enjoy.

—Percy


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19840
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 498 of 524 (877233)
06-08-2020 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by Kleinman
06-08-2020 12:04 PM


Re: A Word on Impunity
Kleinman writes:

Percy writes:

One core point is that complaint systems do not work, especially for minorities:


If you are looking for someone to blame,…

I wasn’t, but thank you for volunteering.

—Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by Kleinman, posted 06-08-2020 12:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 4:09 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 499 of 524 (877234)
06-09-2020 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by Percy
06-08-2020 11:23 PM


Re: A Word on Impunity
Kleinman writes:

If you are looking for someone to blame,…

Percy writes:

I wasn’t, but thank you for volunteering.


Amy Klobuchar had the position and the authority to do something about that police officer. Clearly, she didn't volunteer her help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Percy, posted 06-08-2020 11:23 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2020 9:41 AM Kleinman has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 500 of 524 (877236)
06-09-2020 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by Kleinman
06-09-2020 4:09 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
Amy Klobuchar had the position and the authority to do something about that police officer. Clearly, she didn't volunteer her help.

As in the vast majority of jurisdictions around the nation, Amy, as the County Attorney, referred this case to the grand jury. She, herself, did not present the case to the grand jury because she was sworn in as US Senator. She had nothing to do with this case.

Why the political smear, Kleinman? You upset she didn't read her crystal ball perfectly 14 years ago? Isn't there enough hate in this whole issue without you having to invent more?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 4:09 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 9:55 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 501 of 524 (877237)
06-09-2020 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by AZPaul3
06-09-2020 9:41 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
AZPaul3 writes:

As in the vast majority of jurisdictions around the nation, Amy, as the County Attorney, referred this case to the grand jury.


New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler was famously quoted by Tom Wolfe in The Bonfire of the Vanities that "a grand jury would 'indict a ham sandwich,' if that's what you wanted."

If Amy Klobuchar wanted to indict that cop, it would have happened. And that cop was no ham sandwich. You are just unable to face the facts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2020 9:41 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2020 10:37 AM Kleinman has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 502 of 524 (877238)
06-09-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Kleinman
06-09-2020 9:55 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
You really are out to create and throw shit where none is warranted.

Did you not see the part where "She, herself, did not present the case to the grand jury because she was sworn in as US Senator. She had nothing to do with this case."

You have a real comprehension problem there Kleinman.

Why are you trying to create hate where none exists? The world not burning fast enough for you?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 9:55 AM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 11:04 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 503 of 524 (877239)
06-09-2020 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by Percy
05-27-2020 9:54 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
The video does not appear to show that "she points the firearm directly at the officers."

It only showed the vantage point of one officer. There was another on the staircase. Look again.

The gun was fake.

Hindsight really is 20/20, isn't it? If you can explain how anyone could know that at the moment it occurred, I'll give you a million dollars. If she were pointing that at you, you too would think you were about to die.

The police saw a fake gun, didn't detect that it was fake, and lost sight of the fact that this was a wellness check.

How could they have detected that at the moment it occurred? It was already unusual that they retreated downstairs, but who followed them with the gun? Who produced the gun? Who refused to obey the directive of drop the weapon?

They fired twelve rounds at an unarmed person. Did they miss the first eleven times? As we've seen so often, these supposedly highly trained officers were scared out of their wits and just kept firing and firing.

There were at least three officers there. 3 x 4 = 12. Is four rounds excessive? You shoot until there is no longer a threat.

The DA's office determined that officers had properly followed procedures, but I'm sure there's a lot of interpretation involved. I'm confident words like "reasonable" appear many times in those procedures.

The reason it appears so often is because it is the metric instituted none other than the Supreme Court of the United States, vis a vis Graham v. Conner.

If no police had been called, only wellness and health professions, Marquez would still be alive and nobody would have been hurt.

Do you believe it is just or moral that some people, for their own safety and for the safety of others, that they sometimes be committed against their will if they show signs of a severely diminished capacity to reason, are suicidal, or homicidal?

The family is suing Pasadena for $20 million. The city doesn't have a prayer and will settle out of court for an undisclosed sum, probably around $3-$4 million, much more if they properly consider what a jury would conclude after seeing that video frame by frame (that's how I viewed the critical portions), and even more if the city fears a jury could be convinced that Marquez might have been able to work through her problems and return to work at some point.

The question isn't whether or not Marquez could have conceivably been rehabilitated. Thats precisely why she was being committed -- so that she could potentially be rehabilitated. The issue is whether or not someone, anyone, has the fundamental right to self-protection in the face of deadly force. You seem to continually lose sight of that. EMT's are trained to save people's lives. Sometimes patients in the back of an ambulance become violent for an assortment of reasons. Do EMT's have the fundamental right to protect themselves even if their primary job is protect others?


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Percy, posted 05-27-2020 9:54 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by ringo, posted 06-09-2020 11:03 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
 Message 508 by Percy, posted 06-09-2020 11:52 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 504 of 524 (877240)
06-09-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 10:57 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
There were at least three officers there. 3 x 4 = 12. Is four rounds excessive?

Yes.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 10:57 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Kleinman
Member
Posts: 386
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 505 of 524 (877241)
06-09-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 502 by AZPaul3
06-09-2020 10:37 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
AZPaul3 writes:

You really...


I get it, in your comprehension of things, the prosecutor for Hennepin County, which includes Minneapolis has nothing to do with indicting and prosecuting bad cops in her jurisdiction. She didn't do much about it as senator from her state either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2020 10:37 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by AZPaul3, posted 06-09-2020 11:35 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 6026
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 506 of 524 (877242)
06-09-2020 11:32 AM


Protests
I've been wanting to discuss the recent protests as of late, however, I myself have been occupied for the last twelve days responding to it. Yesterday was the first time I've had a day off since this shit show began.

I have still not met a single police officer, or anyone for that matter, who did not believe that they witnessed a murder. What's more is the sickening glee that this sociopath displayed while choking the life out of a handcuffed prisoner. He very obviously was wanting Floyd to suffer for having ever resisted and likely wanted the onlookers to know that he was in control. No doubt in my mind that this was an ego trip gone horribly awry. The other aspect is the shockingly calloused indifference that the other officers displayed, particularly the Asian officer. Its my understanding that the other two officers were on their second and fourth day on the job respectively. One of the officers allegedly questioned the legitimacy of the tactic, however, because he was so new he probably didn't want to push the issue thinking a senior officer would know what he was doing. But he should have because although very new, he still had a duty to protect that prisoner and they all failed. They are now accessories to a murder.

I'm genuinely amazed that Chauvin hasn't committed suicide yet given the untold path of destruction he laid. No doubt he is in protective custody and is possibly totally insulated as to the true magnitude of the fallout. He did not only destroy his entire department but he single-handedly is the catalyst for the destruction of the entire city... Every police officer in the nation and even in some cases internationally are paying for his sins.

So I'll just tell you what I've been seeing personally. I've seen the majority of the protesters peaceably assembling and redressing their government, which is a Constitutionally protected activity. Well, a lot fuck you's but say whatever you'd like so long as you don't resort to violence. I've also seen agitators intermingled in the crowd who are using this are a pretense to sow destruction and discord. Its opportunism at its finest. I've noticed that BLM are also rejecting ANTIFA. The protesters are policing themselves. I've seen lots of black protesters demanding that the angsty, white suburbanites who are setting fires and throwing rocks at the cops get out of their march out of fear that they will unfairly be blamed. They have a great point.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Percy, posted 06-09-2020 12:13 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 507 of 524 (877243)
06-09-2020 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by Kleinman
06-09-2020 11:04 AM


Re: A Word on Impunity
the prosecutor for Hennepin County, which includes Minneapolis has nothing to do with indicting and prosecuting bad cops

Passed right through both ears without hitting anything in between.

Of course the County Attorney has jurisdiction. The case was sent to the grand jury as is customary.

Then Amy left the County Attorney's office and became a US Senator. She no longer had any jurisdiction. It was not her job to interfere in the workings of the County Attorney's office in Hennepin County or Maricopa County or any other county in any state anywhere.

You're really reaching beyond your grasp here.

What happened? Did she not answer one of your love letters?

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by Kleinman, posted 06-09-2020 11:04 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19840
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 508 of 524 (877245)
06-09-2020 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 10:57 AM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:

The video does not appear to show that "she points the firearm directly at the officers."

It only showed the vantage point of one officer. There was another on the staircase. Look again.

This is false. It's a video. You can queue it up to the exact point in time where you think there is an officer on the staircase that she is aiming at. Go ahead and try to find that point in the video, then post it here queued up properly. You can find instructions on how to do that here: [youtube] dBCode Help

I don't know what it is with people seeing things in videos that simply aren't there. The same thing happened during the London Bridge discussion. There's no official report in sight. An inquest was begun on December 4, 2019, and then was adjourned with no resumption date specified. Maybe the narrative that most people seem to believe will stand up to scrutiny, maybe not, but I'm betting not, and the more time that passes with no official inquest even underway the more likely that seems.

I'm going to let the rest of your post stand as a testament to the attitudes that make interaction with modern law enforcement so dangerous.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 10:57 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:20 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19840
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 509 of 524 (877246)
06-09-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Hyroglyphx
06-09-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Protests
You're still backing the "bad apples" theory. George Floyd's death was a result of systemic racism, not bad apples. This is not a problem of bad apples. It is a problem of a bad system.

The officers you say were new to the job were not new to the job. They had been on the job for over a year but had just emerged from the required one year probationary period for all new officers.

Your mere mention of ANTIFA ("BLM are also rejecting ANTIFA") gives away exactly where you're coming from. Trumpublicans just march out the ANTIFA bogeyman whenever they want to falsely tar some one or some group. No one has any gauge on the degree of involvement of ANTIFA in the protests, least of all Trumpublicans who do not require facts when making pronouncements.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 11:32 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 3:40 PM Percy has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 19840
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 510 of 524 (877250)
06-09-2020 2:30 PM


It Isn't Just When the Cameras Are On
Officer Who Violently Shoved Protester in Brooklyn to Face Charges, announces a New York Times article. Here's a collection of videos of the incident:

The huge collection of videos of police abuse that have accumulated recently is just the tip of the iceberg. For every abuse caught on video there are probably ten or a hundred that are not. We mustn't forget that. The problem is systemic. Reallocating law enforcement funds to more appropriate avenues for dealing with the public is an approach to be seriously considered.

--Percy


  
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