Is the bible the word of God or men?

After I got done proving to IamJoseph that "Palestine" has been the designation of the land for 2500 years before 1948 including 500+ years before Josephus, he quoted me saying this; First of all, I never negated any history (I wouldnt dare take away a single detail of history!).I simply pointed out that Muslims and Christians (especially Palestinians) have Jewish ancestry.Endless U.S. court decisions have been the result of critical-judges being forced to accept that PROVEN historical fact!(care to respond to the decisions Joseph, or will you continue to ignore them and respond to Straw Men?)Anyway, here is what a Jewish convert to Christianity has to offer via his observations of RECENT history; Here is the popular fundamentalist Christian Bible Dictionary from old; I will add in the Bob Brier quote later when I find the exact tape it was on (out of 48!)The facts of history threaten to crush the baseless bull-crap of IamJoseph and other racist disensationalists!EDIT SEE POST 62 FOR BRIER QUOTE(see reply to this post below)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

So you claim there were no Jews, Muslims or Christians in the land after 40 A.D./C.E. cbecause you are too stupid to study the history of the land?The only thing "authenticated" by your post is the genuine stupidity you constantly display.I will try and educate you yet more!Here is some history from a Jewish convert to Christianity who lived in israel for a time; Sorry to burst your bubble Joseph, but Jews, Christians, and Muslims continued to thrive for nearly 2000 years after 40 A.D.!A another thing ..... this is more evidence that many Jews converted to Islam!Granted, no Jews were present at the time of the Arab liberation (in 638 A.D./C.E.which biased historians call an invasion) due to Christian intolerance,BUT the Muslims allowed them to return to the land and Judaism thrived till the Crusaders killed all Jews yet again 461 years later!Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I promised that I would source scholarly observation of the brilliant Egyptologist Bob Brier. Above there was about 10 minutes gap between the two quotes.The latter part had Brier talking about the Bibles text which mentions the 587 captivity to Babylon.Later he goes on to discuss the broader historical implications of the captivity From the scholarly Smiths Bible Dictionary of 100 years ago to Encyclopedia Britannica to dozens of U.S. court decisions to U.S. congressional studies to modern records to the expert opinions of modern scholars who are leaders in their field(like Brier), the acurate presentations of history show that Palestinians are as much descendants of the tribe of Judah as modern day Jews are.(I even have a Palestinian-American friend who took DNA tests with Jews at a university, and the match on the mothers side was identical!)Facts are facts!Sorry you dont like them Joseph.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Native Americans and Palestinians have ancestry that stretches back thousands of years in their respective lands.Joseph supported (or supports) the elimination of both I would assume (he sure has made his view clear on palestinians).Right-wing "manifest destiny" in action.AND REMEMBER: Palestinians have ancestors from ALL peoples of the land-even Jews!Read any history of Palestine,and in ANY historical period. Whether 10,000 years ago.Whether 5,000 years ago.Whether 2500 years ago.Whether 1300 years ago.ALL are ancestors of modern day Palestinians!Thats a historical fact. (little know and at times quite ironic- especially true considering the brain-dead "fundamentalist Christian" Dispnsationalism doctrine, of which this 1800's fantasy demands rank ignorance of history in order for people to be "able" to accept)

[/qs] More projections from I am Joseph! Debating straw men again I see!I never said anything of the aort, how about reading my posts again.Respond to what I actually said.MY ANWSER WILL BE HISTORY ITSELF! READ YOUR HISTORY!AGAIN MY ANWSER WILL BE HISTORY ITSELF!READ IT THEN RESPOND.The history begins in 638 A.D. when 2 legion's of Aramaic Christians crossed over to the side of thje Arab led arm of Omar, and he was able to easily enter Palestine. (Christians didnt even have religion freedom under the post-Constantine Roman Empire and it held up till 638 A.D./C.E.) By 1009 a complete flake came to power (right wing liars try to portray this guy as a typical "Muslim").He was a ruler who had a Muslim father and Christian mother. He would then issue an edict forbidding Muslims from making the pilgrimage to Mecca.He was overthrown and probably killed.The "Christian" leaders in Europe used propaganda of Hakim to issue the Crusades in the coming decades.Enter the Crusades!just before 1100 Then they took Jerusalem where 3 faiths lived in peace for 461 years! Saladin made sure that the rebuilt Church of Holy Sepulchre wasnt destroyed again and he reminded Muslims of the kind spirit of Omar.Later battles of Saladin against Crusaders... Care to respond Joseph?Muslims stopped Christian dis-respect of the Temple site (they made it into a garbage dump!) and rebuilt it!Muslims simply wanted the site rebuilt because they cherished it and wanted it used for worship services. (neither Jews nor Christians did)During the entire period of Crusader rule, Christians called it "Solomons Temple".Care to respond to the facts of history?

MY ANWSER WILL BE HISTORY ITSELF!READ IT THEN RESPOND.The history covered here begins in 638 A.D. A responce Joseph?(yea this has been covered before but I want an actual responce WHAT I TYPED:history itself.)None of thse straw man b.s. responces again please!

More bull-sh**First, Palestinians are ancestors of ALL peoples in the land, so Arabs arent the issue at-all pre-638 AD.(see posts 140, 157, and 162 and actctualy read the facts of history!)Again Arabs are not not the issue at all.NOT AT-ALL!BUT SINCE YOU MENTION IT....... Arabs *are* mentioned in history pre-500 BCE and again I urge you to study your history!GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT YOU BRAINWASHED-DUPE!Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Yes and No.Yes, there was constant genocide of Jews by European Christians who followed the "sacred" doctrines of the religious right which was founded by the Roman Empire.Why,it was from people like like *YOU* IamJoseph!And Muslims proved that BOTH Jews and Muslims can live there together.Jews were completely killed pre 638 A.D. in Jerusalem (when it was ruled by a European church-state monstrosity) and were not allowed to visit their Temple, which Christians made into a garbage dump.Muslims let them return ASAP and it became a center of Judaism.Jews were there till Crusaders like you killed them all in 1099 A.D. (and you are a Crusader in spirit)As soon as the Crusaders (your type of "Christians") were gone, then jew's thrived again without being slaughtered. Actually, Muslims restored the Temple site after Christians robbed it. (and Christians held it in low-regard , else it would be a Christian Temple today!)Its not the Muslims fault that they cherished the Temple site, and bigots like you only used it as a dump to insult Jews! (you have a hateful spirit and represent the absolute worst of Christianity) Muslims lets Jew's return constantly since 638 A.D./B.C.The great surge in Jewish immigration came post 1800's and it was thanks to the generosity of Muslims and their rulers.See post #140 again, and actually read the Charles Pfeiffer quotes.Pfeiffer was one of the best schoalrs around.And he is a conservative Christian. What the hell do you know about Muslim teachings?Or Christ's teachings?Or Paul's teachings?Aside from hateful right-wing propaganda (which is b.s. and completely worthless if one wants to actually know anything about anybody), what the heck do you know? Yikes I shouldnt have asked! (see my last question above)The anwser is "nothing".The European peoples were converted to Christianity by the sword, then returned the favor to every non-Christian they ever found (the world over).Jesus isnt a war-God IamJoseph.Please, for the love of jesus, read your Bible for once! Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

I have proposed a new "Palestine" thread, so we can free up this thread for other discussion.Here is what it will look like.http://EvC Forum: Palestine -->EvC Forum: PalestineNo need to debate Palestine in this thread now.

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Sigh.I suppose, once one has lost every historical argument and seen his obsessive& ignorant view of history completely shot down, then it might feel good to find whatever quote one can dig-up to support his dis-credited view of history.Dennis Miller,huh?Wow!You found a bigoted right-wing clown to repeat the stale old crap I completely shot down lol.They told Harry Truman to "give em hell, Harry", for which he responded "I give them the truth, and the truth gives them hell".I give Joseph history and then history gives him in-surmountable troubles.NOTE I PROMISE I AM GOING TO *ATTEMPT* TO GET THIS DISCUSSION BACK ON TOPIC BY THE TIME I END THIS POST!Interesting that you find ethnic cleansing comical."ha ha ha Palestinian Christians went from 30% down to about 3%, but they were all "fictional" so its really just funny! ha ha ha. Just because I sound like a complete looser isnt so bad because its just so funny.My name is IamJoseph and you can call me IamJoseph"The fact that you are still allowed to post here is due to the fact that your mental-limitations result in posts that are "comical" to enough posters here.I find your disruptions of every last historical discussing just plain disgusting though.Your dishonest tactics prevent any sort of credible presentation from the pro-Bible side (which I am on). Joking about a people who were driven from their homes at gun-point.A real first-class guy.As if we havnt heard enough racist crap from right-wing bigots.Anyway, here we go... Actually, as many simply want to return to their homes.Ask any Palestinian if they would be happy to have a full-right of return and live under a united-Israel and they will only start talking about the obvious fact that the Israeli authorities wont allow that to happen, but if it was their (Palestinians speaking) choice, then it would be fine.Leave it to Dennis Miller to use the term "2000 years" as the period the entire land has been called Palestine.We couldnt expect him to see beyond the "Hadrian smeared the Jews" propaganda, and actually crack the history books.Palestine was used for the entire land 2500 years ago, and the first historical reference to "Israel" as a designation for the entire land came at about the same time (Merenptah did not mention Israel as anything but one of several tribes in a small part of the land).I would like for IamJoseph to preent the first ever non-Biblical reference to "Israel" as the name for THE ENTIRE LAND!I would also like IamJoseph to present evidence for Israel being used for the land at-all (again the Merenptah reference didnt describe the land at all), even if just part.Back to the Miller quote again. Let me explain something Dennis.Actually, let me quote from a Hebrew Grammar to help educate you on gentilic adjectives brought by suffixes. It goes on to use Hebrew font but it says essentially...yisrael (Israel) ---> yisraeli (Israelite)palesheth (Philistia) (or Palestina)palishti (Philistine)This doesnt mention it exactly here, but also posession can be used by simply using the "construct state" in hebrew which means that on can place a word (usually clear by its spelling and syntax), before the noun (such as a place) and it will indicate posession by the word "of"Such as "sons of Israel" (doesnt have the gentilic ending).Inhabitants of Phalistina (Exodus reference to Philistines which again is just the Hebrew palesheth without the suffix).A person can be described as "of" a land simply by living there.SEE PHILO QUOTE IN SIGNATURE.Philo is known as "Philo the Jew". He simply says that Palestine "countries" people(specifically Jews from Christs time-which would include all people in Palestine including Christ!)O and one more thing...The Arabic "filastin" is just their transliteration of the name of the entire land (which came from Greeks at -first), and has nothing to do with some memory of the semitic word PLST which denotes Philistines.Arabs used the name of the ENTIRE land (Palestine)and not some Semitic word for Philistines (PLST).And if a people are from the land then they are "of" the land. (these word games right-wingers play are retarded.They arent even remotely based on anything solid but only come from severe ignorance of nearly every aspect of history, scholarship, literacy, etc.)"native Americans are a 'fictional people' because they didnt use our English term 'America' and because their language doesnt use our gentilic suffixes 'ians' or our way of saying 'of'"(lol that CANT be an accurate quote of right-wingers EXACTLY because they wouldnt understand the basic linguistic concepts lol. It would go more like those "Pretend pals" or "they never existed")

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Are these people "Jews" or "Arabs"You have made it clear that you support Palestinians to be cleansed of the land.So, what racial definition would you place on these people?Stop ranting about "pretend pals" and idiotic crap about Moses and Jesus. (It was by YOUR standards that Jesus as labeled as "Palestinian"-do you not have any integrity at all?)Just anwser the question.

Since you made the argument that Palestine wasnt used for the entire land till the post 2nd Temple people as your reason for the land being a fictional designation, then how about we get back on topic?I have proven palestine was used no later than around 500BCE for the entire land.Now, I want you to tell me when was the earliest reference to Israel as the designation for the entire land.Your refernece to Kenneth Kicthen's book was a complete farce in which you put words in his mouth (did you even read his book).He never presented Merenptah's reference to "Israel" as signifing (any!)land-especially not the entire land!You made the issue of historical references to "Palestine" for the entire land of Canaan/Israel as somehow important. (even though you were ignorant as f**k on the historical sources and history itself)So now I ask you when was the first reference to "Israel" (in ANY historical source, not just western!) as the designation for the entire land.Then when was the 2nd.What were the respective dates?Surely, considering your claims& obsessions, you can name the first two references to "Israel" as the entire land.

Why keep bringing up an issue in which you have literally ignored hundreds of hsitorical facts?And have presented no evidence to support your argument (not that there is any!).All you have done is repeated your stale old (swallowed and barfed out)propaganda (shot down 1 trillion times) which you havnt ever defended or even explained.Here we go again... You havnt anwsered anything.You just keep repeating crap and your own false accusations.Nobody said Jews do not exist anymore.Where do you get that crap?Just because Palestinians are ancestors of all people in the land-including Jews- does not mean that anything is taken away from the ancestry of those who kept the Jewish religion.Just because there were Palestinian Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam does not mean those who kept Judaism are not Jewish.The only problem here is that you have a dispensationalist-bred hatred of Palestinians and Arabs , and simply cant stand to see the fact's of history. ILL REPEAT THE QUESTION!Are these people "Jews" or "Arabs".You can deny these people their humanity and their history, but doesnt the Bible demand that we should bless the children of Abraham?These are Muslims who are descended of the tribe of Judah.The dispensationalists tell us that the Bible predicts war between the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel and "heathen peoples" which they would define as "Palestinian" or "Arab" Christians and Muslims.NOW FACTS OF HISTORY!The problem is that the people of Israel/Palestine-including members of *ALL* three faiths- have ncestry that stretches back to the 12 tribes-especially Judah!(thus dispensationalists "prophecy" is completely ignorant and out of sync with anything on this planet)You can ignore history all you want.You can even create straw-men like your repeated accusations of Muslims calling Moses a Muslim (btw, what the heck does that have to do with anything?! Show me where Muslims called Moses a Muslim, then show me where they said that had anything to do with taking away history of Jews and especially the issue of palestine/Israel.You keep repeating this accusation, so can you actually show us what the heck is hads to do with this issue FOR ONCE?)And, PLEASE, dont try and bring modern-day politics into the discussion! I have avoided talking much about the current conflict, and attempted to keep this discussion on historical issues from the past. Dont discuss anything post 1948 please.You cant even anwser the historical issues already raised(including all the questions I offered you on this off-topic "Palestine" side-discussion you started & wont end).Can you actually offer some sort of historical argument (of once!) that these "Pretend Pals" havnt lived in the land for some length of time (you never present any historical argument so I cant really figure your logic-if any!)What are the standards anyway?(I will highlight this section so Joseph doesnt miss the abobe questions which he should anwser-like his Moses straw man) Most dispensationalists seem to have a primitive mind-set , so its hard to have and credible criteria or a single criterion to respond to.(And Im not *trying* to insulting primitives lol)(I CAN see why primitive peoples might be insulted however)Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

All those internet-garbage "scholars" were responded to ALREADY! (in multiple threads!)Didnt you study the educational material I presented from scholars?You display an ignorance of history at its most fundamental level."Gee, if its on the internet then it MUSTTTTT be true!"Why should I respond to these again, when I already have?You dont even understand the historical context to the quotes of SOME palestinian Arabs,nor do you seem to want to; so why even bother posting here?(Plus I saw another poster in the Bible Study forum ask you for evidence of quote's on the Israeli/Palestinian issue which you seem to have made up or lifted from somebody who made it up-specifically a "quote" of a Pope.Which "prophecy expert" fertilized your mind at a fundi sperm-bank? Hal Lindesey? John Hagee? )This whole subject is off-topic, and even if it were on-topic , then you clearly couldnt understand the complicated issues (though your dis-honesty also affects your reasoning powers to an extent).

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Another IamJoseph straw man!"JERUSALEM WAS NEVER AN ISLAMIC CAPITAL." I already presented the undisputed evidence that there were Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam.Take it up with your spec-ed teacher if you can't read the abundant documentary evidence (not to mention dozens of U.S. Court decisions from the 1800s and 1900s- remember the evidence I presented? You got all confused and though it refered to a "1790" decision , then side-stepped the issue with blather!) Lol, cant you even read your own pastings!Read YOUR OWN POST clown!From the supposed time of King David (you presented no evidence that he reigned in Jerusalem from 1004 to 971!) till Islam was 1600 years!And Jews were not the majority of Jerusalem (hardly any were there after killings during "Christian" control) even in 638 BCE though Muslims allowed them to return and prosper.You own post shows that Muslims were the majority till the 1800's.And it was Muslims who allowed Jews to return.(Muslims dont deny Jewish history, infact they feel it the Hebrew Bible is based on a revelation from God though with transmission errors.Muslims feel Jews were spiritualy superior to the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs)I am not wasting any more time on the rest of your straw men.Suffice to say that Palestinians lived in Jerusalem and they are human-beings.The issues have proven to be way over your head.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.