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Author Topic:   God and Satan
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 16 of 106 (490822)
12-08-2008 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Bailey
12-08-2008 12:09 PM


Re: misinformation ... the breakfast of confusion
quote:

Not knowing and not nippin' it in the bud are not equivocal - lol.

The God likely knew.

Yet, being limited by motivating impulses of Love, how can He behave?

The God does not pick on the handi cap; how can Love even find a fault?
The God can only turn His other cheek, and allow division to divide itself.

He will Love when, while another gets stepped down, One gets stepped up.

The God does not abide in every corner of His omnipotence, and this is how we may know ...

The God knows when man has reached the age of accountability, as He loses sight of the man.
That He cannot, then, generously provide saddens the all powerful God; yet, it is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.

This implies, the God does not see a man once he has reached the age of accountability.
The God desires the man to respond so He may further employ His Love.

The God will generously provide when the voice of the man is heard, as this too is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.
There is no evidence what will occur if Adam hides and does not answer.

Only that he will live when he exposes himself and responds.


Well, I guess this is one of those areas where I have always disagreed with the Bible. If all of God's actions are driven by love, then why are some of his actions so incredibly cruel? Two scenarios come to mind immediately. The great flood and God's treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15:2-3. First, the flood. God created the entire universe by simply speaking the word, but is required to murder an untold number of innocent peopled (women, children) in order to change mans course of action. Second, the destruction of the Amakekites. God orders Saul to put to the sword every single Amalekite man, woman, child, goat and cow. These actions do not instill in me a sense of 'love' in any way, shape or form. These actions are down right cruel and capricious. Did God really have to tell Saul to kill the children?

No, to me there is no love in these actions. If God was unhappy with the way man was turning out, he should have fixed things right off the bat. Who was the audience for this action, who was being taught a 'lesson' in all of this? Noah? Was he the prime audience for all of this violence? Did Noah not see the dead bodies floating in the water. The men, women and children floating dead and bloated in the water? If I had seen something like this and could attribute it all to one man, the thought of love for this man/being would be the last thing on my mind.

Gee God, wasn't that a little harsh? Couldn't you just blink all the bad people away and still start over with Noah and his sons? Did he really have to destroy the planet?

By the way, God has promised to do it all again, this time with fire, the next time he sets foot on the planet.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 12:09 PM Bailey has not yet responded

    
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 17 of 106 (490823)
12-08-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
quote:

Wrong.

All of those who are born again and their names written in the Lamb's book of Life is going to spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in Revelation 21:


Well, I've read Revelations and it is no treatise on God's love. There are those on this board who just can't wait for this particular prophesy to be fulfilled. Yeahhh!!! Wahooo! Jesus is coming back to Earth. WOOO HOOOO! Unfortunately, 2/3 thirds of you are not going to survive the event. Oh and it's not just man that's gonna get whacked, no God's gonna burn the forests, turn the sun black (or is it blood red), poison the oceans and unleash torture on all those sinners before he kills them!! Really!! torture! Well that's just great. I can just feel the love in that written word. mmmmmmmm.

Now, about the new Heaven and the new Earth. God knows all of this is going to transpire, but yet allows it all to happen. Seems like the long way around to get to the place where you wanted to be in the first place.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1899 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 18 of 106 (490830)
12-08-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
12-08-2008 4:06 PM


When all is One
Thank you for the exchange.

God claimed to create evil. The devil is evil.
Therefore God created the devil to be the devil he is.

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?

He created not evil, but Love; yet it identifies Him.

What is distinguished when all is One?

How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?

It is not; forcing one to become what they do not want is evil.

The chimera was not created to commit suicide; but perfectly.
Wondering, may it not die, it chose its own destiny.

Hijacking mankind as its own ...
Promoting the collection of gold.

What will it try and do with those resources?

If I were to choose to create a bomb {that I intended to be}, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?

Italics added.

The present opinion agrees with Straggler here.

Providing one does inflict as designed.

How is the creation of Satan different?

The one who made the bomb did not allow it a choice to ...

* bestow untold Love and charity on innocent victims.
* become a bomb that would not explode.
* do what it wanted.

It was a tyrant.

In response to message 16 ...

Well, I guess this is one of those areas where I have always disagreed with the Bible.

The present opinion understands.

If all of God's actions are driven by love, then why are some of his actions so incredibly cruel?

Taxation without proper representation.

All must reason by way of human moral authority.
A rookie public defender is better than none.
Is any man, even of the God, not a man?

Two scenarios come to mind immediately. The great flood and God's treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15:2-3. First, the flood. God created the entire universe by simply speaking the word, but is required to murder an untold number of innocent peopled (women, children) in order to change mans course of action. Second, the destruction of the Amakekites. God orders Saul to put to the sword every single Amalekite man, woman, child, goat and cow. These actions do not instill in me a sense of 'love' in any way, shape or form. These actions are down right cruel and capricious. Did God really have to tell Saul to kill the children?

Doubtful.

No, to me there is no love in these actions. If God was unhappy with the way man was turning out, he should have fixed things right off the bat. Who was the audience for this action, who was being taught a 'lesson' in all of this? Noah? Was he the prime audience for all of this violence? Did Noah not see the dead bodies floating in the water. The men, women and children floating dead and bloated in the water? If I had seen something like this and could attribute it all to one man, the thought of love for this man/being would be the last thing on my mind.

Regarding the God, it would seem better to complain He saved the eight and the animals.

Granted, nephilm apparently had shit timing.
We are likely better off without them.

The deluge was going to happen whether people were around or not.
Much like the fires in Cali and earthquakes worldwide.

Gee God, wasn't that a little harsh? Couldn't you just blink all the bad people away and still start over with Noah and his sons? Did he really have to destroy the planet?

The God's words have been misrepresented since the break o' dawn.
The Old Man did the best he could do to get the message across.
Even the "great men o' god" cannot help to embellish the story.

For Heaven's sake (and then Some); they killed the Jesus.

By the way, God has promised to do it all again, this time with fire, the next time he sets foot on the planet.

Finally ...

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : spelling

Edited by Bailey, : add to edit (Mess 16)


Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary
The Apostle of the Skeptics writes:

"...picture me alone in that room ... night after night, feeling ... the steady, unrelenting approach of Him
whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 4:06 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 12-09-2008 5:10 PM Bailey has responded
 Message 27 by caldron68, posted 12-11-2008 9:04 PM Bailey has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 106 (490907)
12-09-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
12-08-2008 8:20 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Good and evil would have to exist to have a choice between good and evil.

Why is there a need for that choice?

There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.

Why knowingly create evil?

First thing, the devil is not responsible for any decision man makes.
Second thing God is not responsible for any decision man makes.

So there is no way to compare to your example.

But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?

Why would God be evil for creating evil?

Knowingly creating evil not an act of evil? Is this true just for God or for anything that knowingly creates evil? Can you explain your reasoning further?

Scientist developed a drug called vioxx which killed untold thousands of people.

Are those scientist evil?

Hospitals in the US were responsible for an average of 195,000 preventable, in-hospital medical errors in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Info

Are hospitals evil?

BTW heart disease and cancer were the only causes of more deaths than the Hospitals.

I don't think these examples of human stupidity are quite the same as an omnipotent, omniscient (supposedly perfectly good) being intentionally creating evil.

My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 8:20 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2008 12:25 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 20 of 106 (490908)
12-09-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Bailey
12-08-2008 10:50 PM


Re: When all is One
Straggler writes:

How is the creation of Satan different?

The one who made the bomb did not allow it a choice to ...

* bestow untold Love and charity on innocent victims.
* become a bomb that would not explode.
* do what it wanted.

It was a tyrant.

An omniscient God knew the choices that creation (i.e. Satan) would make. Why create that being knowing that outcome unless God wants evil to exist?

Why does God want evil to exist?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 10:50 PM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Bailey, posted 12-10-2008 7:33 AM Straggler has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1899 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 21 of 106 (490948)
12-10-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
12-09-2008 5:10 PM


Abortions ok sometimes ...
Thank you for the exchange Straggler.

Straggler writes:

Straggler writes:

Straggler writes:

If I were to choose to create a bomb {that I intended to be}, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?


Italics added.

The present opinion agrees with Straggler here.
Providing one does inflict as designed.

Lucifer was intended to Love.
Satan chose not to ...


How is the creation of Satan different?

Forcing one to become what they do not want is evil.

The one who made the bomb was a tyrant.

It did not allow it a choice to ...

* bestow untold Love and charity on innocent victims.
* become a bomb that would not explode.
* do what it wanted.

It did not afford the benefit of doubt.


An omniscient God knew the choices that creation (i.e. Satan) would make.
Why create that being knowing that outcome unless God wants evil to exist?

Is enforcing your own undivided rule communistic or appropriate?

Or both; appropriately communistic when motivated by seeking to destroy evil.

Many dictators are greatly accused of such ideology.

Should we suggest, back in 1889, a god should have aborted the infant of 29 year old Klara Pölzl?

Or the spawn of Subha Tulfah al-Mussallat some years later ...

And all the mean people in the world.
lol - Muhahaahahaahahaahahhaahahaa!!

Seriously, who would quicker serve an Arien god?

Why does God want evil to exist?

He does not.

Yet, without evil, we cannot know good.
What is distinguished when all is One?

He created not evil, but Love; yet it identifies Him.

Easier to "blame it on the man".
Human moral authority allows it.

Why do we love it so much?

One Love


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 12-09-2008 5:10 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 5:50 AM Bailey has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 22 of 106 (490974)
12-10-2008 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
12-09-2008 5:05 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

Why is there a need for that choice?

Good question. Explaining the answer is tough.

Without a choice between good and evil there would have been no sin. (Disobedience to God's command.)

Without sin there would be no death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I get the feeling if there was no death this planet would have been over populated a long time ago. Unless a certain number of humans and creatures had been created without the ability to reproduce.

Straggler writes:

There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.

But there would be no choice between good and evil.

Straggler writes:

Why knowingly create evil?

It was necessary.

Straggler writes:

But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?

God did not create the possibility of evil.

God created evil. He created the devil and his angels.

Straggler writes:

My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?

You may ask the question but you don't want the answer.

Trying to explain why God would do something to you is like trying to describe a beautiful sunset from the west coast of Florida to a person who has been blind from birth.

That person would have no concept of what you were trying to say as they had never seen what you are talking about.

You do not believe God exists.
You do not believe the devil exists.
The only evil you believe exists is what you believe to be evil.

But let me give explaining to you my best shot although you will probably remain just like the blind person understanding the sunset.

God created everything that there is.
Before He did that He viewed the end and decided the project was worth the cost.

He tells us in Isaiah:

55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Now what you are asking me to do is reveal the mind of God to you.
Give you answers to questions that He does not give a clear answer too.

Since God's thoughts and mine differ so much I feel a little inadequate to the task but I will give you what I believe, from my 60 years of studying and walking with God.

In all my life I have never met a person that did not want to be loved for who they are.

Since man is created in the image of God I will assume He has that desire also.

The only way that can be accomplished is if the one doing the loving is free to love by choice.

God created beings, creatures that worship Him constantly. Rev. 7:15.

God created the devil and his angels to give man a choice.

God created man and placed him in a paradise and gave him a choice.

Man could choose to live and walk and talk with God or choose to disobey and be separated from God and die.

That man chose to eat the fruit and die with his wife rather than to live in the garden with the serpent and be able to walk and talk with God.

Making it possible for billions of humans to be able to choose to love God and serve Him just because He is God.

That also made it possible for you to not believe in God and worship Him and serve Him.

But now that man was separated from God there needed to be a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.

God provided the way a man could receive a full pardon and be restored to fellowship.

All a person has to do is accept God's provisions.

So to answer your personal question, "Why create that choice?"

So Straggler could have a choice of believing in and trusting God.

Or,

So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-09-2008 5:05 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 6:19 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 06-22-2013 4:29 PM ICANT has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 106 (491046)
12-11-2008 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Bailey
12-10-2008 7:33 AM


Re: Abortions ok sometimes ...
Is enforcing your own undivided rule communistic or appropriate?

Or both; appropriately communistic when motivated by seeking to destroy evil.

No need to destroy it if it was not created in the first place.

Straggler writes:

Why does God want evil to exist?

He does not.

Yet, without evil, we cannot know good.
What is distinguished when all is One?

He created not evil, but Love; yet it identifies Him.

Hmmmm. Is not God the creator of all things? Including evil?

Easier to "blame it on the man".
Human moral authority allows it.

Why do we love it so much?


Easier maybe. But does this hold up?
Are you saying that there was no evil before man?
If there was evil before man then man cannot be blamed for the existence of evil.

If God created all then it really doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim that he did not also create evil.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Bailey, posted 12-10-2008 7:33 AM Bailey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Bailey, posted 12-11-2008 9:33 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 106 (491047)
12-11-2008 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by ICANT
12-10-2008 12:25 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Straggler writes:

Why is there a need for that choice?

Good question. Explaining the answer is tough.

Without a choice between good and evil there would have been no sin. (Disobedience to God's command.)

Without sin there would be no death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

An omnipotent God could create a world where death was not necessary. Or a world where sin was not necessary. Surely heaven is such a place? Why necessitate sin? Why necessitate death?

Your answer does not hold up.

I get the feeling if there was no death this planet would have been over populated a long time ago. Unless a certain number of humans and creatures had been created without the ability to reproduce.

But God made it that way. He did not have to make it that way. Why would he do so? Unless he wants evil to exist for it's own sake.

Straggler writes:

There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.

But there would be no choice between good and evil.

Yes. That is the point. Why necessitate a choice between good and evil? Unless God wants evil to exist for it's own sake.

Straggler writes:

Why knowingly create evil?

It was necessary.

If it is necessary it is only necessary because God made it necessary. Why make evil necessary unless God wants evil to exist for it's own sake?

Straggler writes:

But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?

God did not create the possibility of evil.

God created evil. He created the devil and his angels.

Do you agree that God also create the necessity for evil?

Straggler writes:

My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?

You may ask the question but you don't want the answer.

Yes I do.

Trying to explain why God would do something to you is like trying to describe a beautiful sunset from the west coast of Florida to a person who has been blind from birth.

That person would have no concept of what you were trying to say as they had never seen what you are talking about.

You do not believe God exists.
You do not believe the devil exists.
The only evil you believe exists is what you believe to be evil.

But let me give explaining to you my best shot although you will probably remain just like the blind person understanding the sunset.

God created everything that there is.
Before He did that He viewed the end and decided the project was worth the cost.

Why did there have to be a cost? Why would God create everything such that there must be a cost? Such that there must be evil?

Now what you are asking me to do is reveal the mind of God to you.
Give you answers to questions that He does not give a clear answer too.

Since God's thoughts and mine differ so much I feel a little inadequate to the task but I will give you what I believe, from my 60 years of studying and walking with God.

OK. But in your 60 years of study have you ever asked yourself the question as to why God created a world that needs evil in the first place?

In all my life I have never met a person that did not want to be loved for who they are.

Since man is created in the image of God I will assume He has that desire also.

The only way that can be accomplished is if the one doing the loving is free to love by choice.

God created beings, creatures that worship Him constantly. Rev. 7:15.

God created the devil and his angels to give man a choice.

God created man and placed him in a paradise and gave him a choice.

Man could choose to live and walk and talk with God or choose to disobey and be separated from God and die.

That man chose to eat the fruit and die with his wife rather than to live in the garden with the serpent and be able to walk and talk with God.

Making it possible for billions of humans to be able to choose to love God and serve Him just because He is God.

That also made it possible for you to not believe in God and worship Him and serve Him.

But now that man was separated from God there needed to be a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.

God provided the way a man could receive a full pardon and be restored to fellowship.

All a person has to do is accept God's provisions.

So to answer your personal question, "Why create that choice?"

So Straggler could have a choice of believing in and trusting God.

Or,

So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.

I do indeed choose that. But is that evil? Are things really so black and white? And if they are presumably God made them that way.

There are many that I do not love. Many that by and large, rightly or wrongly I am indifferent to. But I still do not wish them ill. I will not revel in their suffering. In fact I wish them well if I even think of them at all.

Why cannot the choice be to accept and love God (as you presumably do) OR to disbelieve and be indifferent to God (as I do)? Why necessitate evil?

Why must evil in the form of enjoying suffering, intentional harm and wickedness exist at all?

I dispute the necessity of evil. If evil exists it is because God wills it so and if evil is necessary it is only because God wishes it to be necessary.

If there is a God then he is as at least as evil as he is good.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ICANT, posted 12-10-2008 12:25 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 12-11-2008 10:39 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 25 of 106 (491061)
12-11-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Straggler
12-11-2008 6:19 AM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

ICANT writes:

So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.

I do indeed choose that. But is that evil?

So according to Straggler God does not exist.

There are many posts in this thread that says evil does exist.

Does evil exist? Yes/No

Since your belief is that God does not exist.

Why do we have evil?

Who is responsible for evil if there is no God or devil?

How did evil evolve?

What did evil evolve from?

Why do no creatures other than humans practice evil?

Straggler writes:

Do you agree that God also create the necessity for evil?

If you mean created the necessity for man to do evil. No

Man could have chosen to do good and obeyed by simply not eating the fruit.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 6:19 AM Straggler has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 712 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 106 (491063)
12-11-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate
12-08-2008 7:20 PM


Consequential choice.
DevilsAdvocate writes:

Except that was not the case with Adam and Eve. They had no exposure to evil. They were innocent in a similar manner in which a small child who has not matured or been exposed to the big wide world.

A knowledge of good and evil doesn't appear to be required in the case of Adam and Eves choice. There is no indication that theirs was a moral choice - rather, the indication is that it was a consequential one - them only gaining a "knowledge of good and evil" (ie:conscience) on falling but having an idea as to consequence before choosing.

For your matchbox analogy to work you would have to assume Adam and Eve hadn't a balanced appreciation of the positive/negative consequences attaching to their choice for/against God. Your child left playing with a matchbox might be influenced by the positive consequence of an intriguing flame but if their "choice" isn't countered by a balanced appreciation of the negative consequences of lighting the match then it's no choice at all.

If Adam and Eve possessed a balanced appreciation of the consequences of their choice, then all that was left was for their own free will to decide what way to go. It's not necessary that a full knowledge of all consequences attaching to the choice be known, in order for the choice presented to be a balanced one. It only requires that the level of the knowledge of consequences (whatever that level was pitched at) be balanced for both options.

After setting up the choice, God leaves them effectively sitting in the middle of a balanced see-saw. It's for them to decide to which end of the see-saw they will walk.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2008 7:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-11-2008 9:31 PM iano has responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 27 of 106 (491126)
12-11-2008 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Bailey
12-08-2008 10:50 PM


Re: When all is One
Bailey writes:

caldron68 writes:

Two scenarios come to mind immediately. The great flood and God's treatment of the Amalekites in 1 Sam 15:2-3. First, the flood. God created the entire universe by simply speaking the word, but is required to murder an untold number of innocent peopled (women, children) in order to change mans course of action. Second, the destruction of the Amakekites. God orders Saul to put to the sword every single Amalekite man, woman, child, goat and cow. These actions do not instill in me a sense of 'love' in any way, shape or form. These actions are down right cruel and capricious. Did God really have to tell Saul to kill the children?

Doubtful.

Doubtful? It's in the book Bailey. The book is God's inspired word, no? Are you privy to information that the rest of us don't have? Information that allows you to overlook the bad and accept only the good?

"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” (1 Samuel 15:2-3).

This is fairly clear. Kill them all is the message here. How do you get from this to the word 'doubtful', as in it's doubtful that he said that, when I ask why God had to instruct Saul to kill the children?

Bailey writes:


The deluge was going to happen whether people were around or not.
Much like the fires in Cali and earthquakes worldwide.

Huh? The flood was going to happen anyway? That's not what it says in the book.

5 And Yahweh saw that man's wickedness was great over the face of the earth, and that all day the thoughts in his heart formed nothing but wickedness.
6 And Yahweh regretted having made man on the face of the earth, and his heart grieved.
7 And Yahweh said, "I will wipe man from the face of the earth, man, my own creation and also the animals of the field, and the creatures that crawl on the ground, and the birds of the air; for I regret having made them." (Genesis 6:5-7}

I've seen this before. You've become so indoctrinated in the message of love, you can't see the forest for the trees. You're deflecting the nasty parts of the Bible and promoting the parts that suit your needs.

Sorry, it's all in there for everybody to read. No need for an interpreter. We've had way too many of those for way too long.

Cheers,
Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Bailey, posted 12-08-2008 10:50 PM Bailey has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 630 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 28 of 106 (491130)
12-11-2008 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
12-11-2008 11:15 AM


Re: Consequential choice.
A knowledge of good and evil doesn't appear to be required in the case of Adam and Eves choice. There is no indication that theirs was a moral choice - rather, the indication is that it was a consequential one - them only gaining a "knowledge of good and evil" (ie:conscience) on falling but having an idea as to consequence before choosing.

Your assertion does not fly. If someone (a child or an adult) has an understanding of the consquences of his actions than effectively he is making a moral choice between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable with the understanding of what happens if he makes the wrong choice. The difference between a young child and an adult is that a young child does not normally understand the full ramifications of his actions while an adult normally does. Of course intelligence and mental handicap also plays into this. Also this understanding of the consequences of actions typically increases with exposure to the world and with age.

For your matchbox analogy to work you would have to assume Adam and Eve hadn't a balanced appreciation of the positive/negative consequences attaching to their choice for/against God.

Good is morally accepted behavior and evil is morally rephrensible behavior is it not? If Adam and Eve knew the full consequences of their actions than they would know the difference between good and evil would they not? How is this possible if they had not yet eaten of the tree of Good and Evil? Would you not agree that their understanding of the consequences of their actions would not be unlike that of a young child?

Your child left playing with a matchbox might be influenced by the positive consequence of an intriguing flame but if their "choice" isn't countered by a balanced appreciation of the negative consequences of lighting the match then it's no choice at all.

Exactly! My point. Adam and Eve should not be held responsible if their understanding of good and evil was not fully developed and they do not fully understand the consequences of their actions.

If I told my 4 year old daughter do not touch those matches or you could burn down the house and you may die and then leave her with the box of matches, again who is at fault if she dies?

If Adam and Eve possessed a balanced appreciation of the consequences of their choice, then all that was left was for their own free will to decide what way to go.

The question is did they have this balanced appreciation? Do you really think they understood the death God was supposedly talking about? They had never experienced death much less understood its full ramifications both spiritually and physically. On top of this billions of peoples suffering in life and death are the result of this one act. You could say that the eternal torment in hell of billions of people is a result in the culmination of this one act. You really think they understood this consequence? And why would a good God place the eternal judgement of billions of people on this one act. It would be like me a father not only allowing my daughter to burn down the house and kill herself but kill all her sibblings, grandchildren and great-grandchildren because of this one act by a child with no understanding of the eternal consequences of this one act. It is unfathomable the ridiculousness and pure malic and evil of this story.

It's not necessary that a full knowledge of all consequences attaching to the choice be known, in order for the choice presented to be a balanced one. It only requires that the level of the knowledge of consequences (whatever that level was pitched at) be balanced for both options.

Tell that to the police when you explain why your child died while you stood by and did nothing to stop her self-destruction.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 12-11-2008 11:15 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by iano, posted 12-12-2008 5:48 AM DevilsAdvocate has responded

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1899 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 29 of 106 (491131)
12-11-2008 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
12-11-2008 5:50 AM


.. who's that babies daddy ..
Thanks for the exchange Brutha Strag.
Much appreciated.

Brutha Strag writes:

If I were to choose to create a bomb {that I intended to be}, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims
would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?


Yes.

How is the creation of Satan different?

Entirely.

Forcing one to become what they do not want is evil.
The God is not the enforcer; He is the Encourager.

The bomb maker did not afford the benefit of doubt.
The God does ...


An omniscient God knew the choices that creation (i.e. Satan) would make.
Why create that being knowing that outcome unless God wants evil to exist?

Is enforcing your own undivided rule communistic or appropriate?

Or both; appropriately communistic when motivated by seeking to destroy evil. Many dictators are greatly accused of such ideology.

Should we suggest, back in 1889, a god should have aborted the infant of 29 year old Klara Pölzl?

Seriously, who would quicker serve an Arien god?


No need to destroy it if it was not created in the first place.

Safe sex or kill the baby daddy!
lol - the question was, "why create ..."?
Let us move in this direction tho.

Agreed; this is not to imply the God's creation did not create 'evil'.

Nor that anyone would quicker serve a fascist creator murderer.

Religion and reality established most won't ...

The God is not a murderer ... ever.
Else the God would have iced the snake
Do not be decieved by 'religion'.

That is how absolute morals roll.
They do not compromise Love.

When a participant in the God's creation does, an era of relative moral reasoning ensues.
This process begins to judge the original offense.

That verdict, established by the Man, will be beheld by the God.

The God may have likely kicked 'satan' in the face and bitch smacked it by now, if He was capable of not loving.

Even still, the God continually encourages the defected creation to part from its choice not to Love.

His hands are all but tied when the defective creature continually tells Him to eat poop.

The defected creature eventually kills itself.

The God mourns; He is sad the creature did not Love to Live its Life.

Yet, is He not just for not having forced such behavior?

Or is the God guilty of not compromising absolute Love?

Brutha Strag writes:

Why does God want evil to exist?


He does not.

He created not evil, but Love; yet it identifies Him.

Yet, without evil, we cannot know good.
What is distinguished when all is One?


Hmmmm. Is not God the creator of all things? Including evil?

Is the Father responsible for a child's decision; or its choices?

How much so?

The God created Love; Love created all Life.
Life gave way to reality; including 'evil'.

Who is truly at fault when the love, and law, is broken?

Brutha Strag writes:

Why does God want evil to exist?


He does not.

Easier to "blame it on the man".
Human moral authority allows it.

Why do we love it so much?

Easier maybe. But does this hold up?

All objective evidence would assume so.
What else, visibly, may have created it?

Yet, the present opinion asserts otherwise.
Unless "the man" is employed as slang.
Guilt and Truth are much like Time ...

Relative to the observer.

Care to take a stab at why we love it so much?

Are you saying that there was no evil before man?

A departure from reality.

There was no 'evil' before lucifer, much less Life or man.
Life was created well before 'evil'; Man was created after.

'Satan' is created between them; yet, will not remain.

If there was evil before man then man cannot be blamed for the existence of evil.

Incorrect brutha Strag; 9 out of 10 prosecuters would disagree - lol

If there was evil before man then man cannot be blamed for the creation of evil.
Mankind may still be justly accused of its employment, and intertwined existence, tho.

If I presently stop shaving, you cannot blame me for the existence of future shaving.

Tho, without forgiveness, I am guilty of the past.
Even still, as long as I continue to shave, I am guilty of promoting its existence.

Mankind's continuous employment of evil appears responsible for its continuous existence.

It would be a lie and a shame to accuse mankind of creating "evil".
Can he not be held accountable for its employment benefits tho?

Regulated judiciary systems would suppose so ...
As well as a great number of 'upright' citizens.
lol - and even some dedicated criminals.

If God created all then it really doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim that he did not also create evil.

Correct.

This is to imply the likelihood of Him creating the laptop, being typed on, is plausible as Him creating 'evil'.

He has allowed all that is; the God has created all Life.

I ask: within the sphere, is it evident mankind created apart from the God?
This is not to imply the Man created 'evil'; rather, the fullfillment of Love.

We cannot safely assume man responsible for creating all things, can we?
Should we not suppose another culpable when contemplating such matters?

It is difficult to percieve the epitamy of Love creating it's rival opponent.

How does the God create relative moral authority?
Did it not exist before it killed the Jesus?

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : grammar

Edited by Bailey, : spelling


Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary
The Apostle of the Skeptics writes:

"...picture me alone in that room ... night after night, feeling ... the steady, unrelenting approach of Him
whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 5:50 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 712 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 30 of 106 (491148)
12-12-2008 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate
12-11-2008 9:31 PM


Re: Consequential choice.
iano writes:

A knowledge of good and evil doesn't appear to be required in the case of Adam and Eves choice. There is no indication that theirs was a moral choice - rather, the indication is that it was a consequential one - them only gaining a "knowledge of good and evil" (ie:conscience) on falling but having an idea as to consequence before choosing.

DevilsAdvocate writes:

Your assertion does not fly. If someone (a child or an adult) has an understanding of the consquences of his actions than effectively he is making a moral choice between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable with the understanding of what happens if he makes the wrong choice.

My assertion has two wings:

1) The consequences of making for example, an omlette, is that the eggs shell will be broken. There is no morality involved in a choice limited to consequences. The question is whether you prefer pristine eggshells or omlettes only.

2) There is no suggestion in the biblical account that the choice faced by Adam and Eve was other than consequential (from their perspective). The notion that their choice was consequential and not moral is strongly supported by their only gaining "a knowledge of good and evil" (how better would you define the word "conscience"?)after the choice. And it was only after the choice was executed that their eyes were opened resulting in them acting as moral beings (hiding on the dawning realisation they had done wrong).

-

For your matchbox analogy to work you would have to assume Adam and Eve hadn't a balanced appreciation of the positive/negative consequences attaching to their choice for/against God.

Good is morally accepted behavior and evil is morally reprensible behavior is it not? If Adam and Eve knew the full consequences of their actions than they would know the difference between good and evil would they not? How is this possible if they had not yet eaten of the tree of Good and Evil? Would you not agree that their understanding of the consequences of their actions would not be unlike that of a young child?

In my remark I use the term "balanced appreciation". I remarked later that there is no need to have a full appreciation of consequences in order to have a balanced consequential choice. The word morality needs to be dropped from the discussion re: their choice.

That said, assuming Adam and Eve indeed had no morality then a full appreciation of the consequences wouldn't include any moral dimension. This doesn't render them the same as a child with a matchbox however.

-

Your child left playing with a matchbox might be influenced by the positive consequence of an intriguing flame but if their "choice" isn't countered by a balanced appreciation of the negative consequences of lighting the match then it's no choice at all.

Exactly! My point. Adam and Eve should not be held responsible if their understanding of good and evil was not fully developed and they do not fully understand the consequences of their actions.

If I told my 4 year old daughter do not touch those matches or you could burn down the house and you may die and then leave her with the box of matches, again who is at fault if she dies?

I'm supposing (given the biblical evidence) that the choice facing Adam and Eve was consequential only - no good or evil involved from their perspective.

You're assuming the lack of consequential balance attaching to your 4 year old daughter is the same lack of consequential balance attaching to Adam and Eve. In your daugthers case we know she has no appreciation of death or the dangers and damage arising out of a fire. The command "do not" is hollow.

We can't say the same about Adam and Eve as we don't know what their understanding was of consequences (although the account indicates Eves appreciation of consequences). In which case, you're left relying on the assumption that they are like your 4 year old, consequentially speaking.

-

The question is did they have this balanced appreciation? Do you really think they understood the death God was supposedly talking about?

They didn't need to understand the death God was talking about to have a balanced appreciation. All you need for balanced appreciation is balance - obviously enought. That the level of knowledge and appreciation could be balanced at a low level or medium or high level is irrelevant to the issue of balance.

Suppose one day God stands hard on Adams toe and Adam yells in pain. God says "see that grain of sand on the beach? Well, that's the equivilent of that amount of pain you felt. Now see all the grains of sand on this beach? Well that's the equivilent of death"

If God ensures that the appreciation for the other side is the same then you have a balanced choice set up. There is no need to have an experiential knowledge of the ugliness of death or the pain of separation from God in order to have balanced choice.

-

And why would a good God place the eternal judgement of billions of people on this one act. It would be like me a father not only allowing my daughter to burn down the house and kill herself but kill all her sibblings, grandchildren and great-grandchildren because of this one act by a child with no understanding of the eternal consequences of this one act. It is unfathomable the ridiculousness and pure malice and evil of this story.

God set in motion a plan that involved giving every single person he created the choice of whether to reside in his presence for eternity or to whether reside outside his presence for eternity. This for obvious enough reasons: choice is intrinsic to proper relationship - for love relationships can't be determined robotically or demanded.

It's your existance, you get to decide where to spend it.

Adam and Eve were first up and were presented with a neutral consequential choice and they choose "no". And in choosing "no" they corrupted the nature of all their offspring to that we were born defaulting to the "no" position. That is to say, left to our own devices we couldn't have a balanced choice wrt God - our natures are inclined to love sin and to hate God. To ensure that we are (effectively) put in the same position as Adam and Eve, our sin-loving natures are balanced by something that Adam and Eve didn't have access to at the time of making their choice. A conscience, a knowledge of good and evil.

Yes, we are all born condemned (outside Gods presence). But yes, we can all be saved from condemnation (brought into Gods presence). It's depends on the outcome of our sin influence /conscience influenced choice. It's a balanced choice at that - not the same category of choice that Adam and Eve had but balanced for all that.

How elegant that at the very moment of falling into a sin nature, man was provided with the very tool aimed at bringing about his salvation: a knowledge of good and evil!

Wrapping it all up neatly in the end is the fact that Adam and Eve themselves could also be saved from their sin. They never made a moral choice in the garden so in a sense weren't choosing for/against eternal relationship with God. It wouldn't be fair of God not to give an appreciation of the actual consequences involved in letting a person making that kind of eternal choice.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-11-2008 9:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-14-2008 10:23 AM iano has responded

  
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