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Author Topic:   God and Satan
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1396 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 1 of 106 (490731)
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Sorry if this subject has come up before, but since it keeps coming around in small batches in other threads, I thought I would centralize the topic and get a focused discussion going.

The topic up for discussion is God and Satan. Specifically, why did God create Satan and more generally, why does God allow Satan to influence man on Earth?

To get things going, here are two links from where I found the biblical facts that follow:

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2006/20060215.htm

Both of these sites have God creating Satan as Lucifer, promoting Lucifer to a position of power and then Lucifer himself creating Satan. And this is where the discussion needs to begin. There are just way too many problems with this scenario considering all of the attributes that have been assigned to God and to Heaven in general:

1) God is omniscient, but can't see that Lucifer will eventually become Satan.

2) Heaven is, well.... Heaven, right? From the stories presented through the links posted above, what we have is a primadonna who eventually develops a problem with the power hierarchy in Heaven and decides that he should have equal power.

So, the problems here are, God is supposed to be Omniscient, but yet does not know that Satan will turn out to be such a little devil, and second, but maybe more important, Heaven is not all it is cracked up to be. Obviously things like envy, greed and hate are also attributes of those beings that occupy Heaven. How can this be? haven't we always been told that Heaven is, well.... Heaven, right? This is the place where all the good people are supposed to go and drink milk and honey and never ever experience a bad day for the rest of eternity, right?

Well, given the story of Satan then none of this is true. Obviously there is a power structure in Heaven other then that of just the head dude in charge. Not only that, but heavenly beings actually have the ability to get pissed off, in heaven no less!!!!!

What do these things say about God and Heaven?

Cheers,
--Caldron68


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Message 2 of 106 (490745)
12-08-2008 5:11 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1745 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 3 of 106 (490769)
12-08-2008 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


God and Satan
Well, given the story of Satan then none of this is true. Obviously there is a power structure in Heaven other then that of just the head dude in charge. Not only that, but heavenly beings actually have the ability to get pissed off, in heaven no less!!!!!

What do these things say about God and Heaven?

Try this:

Chose 10 people, Ask them 2 questions:
1) What is God?
2) What is Satan?

Their answer must be their own definition not some programmed definition.

I would think that I would nget a number of different answers.
This owing to the individual ideals of the person.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by caldron68, posted 12-07-2008 7:25 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1925 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 4 of 106 (490782)
12-08-2008 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


misinformation ... the breakfast of confusion
Welcome to the forums caldron68.
Thank you for the exchange ...

Hopefully jaywill and autumnman can afford this thread attention as well.

Caldron68 writes:

So, the problems here are, God is supposed to be Omniscient, but yet does not know that Satan will turn out to be such a little devil ...


Not knowing and not nippin' it in the bud are not equivocal - lol.

The God likely knew.

Yet, being limited by motivating impulses of Love, how can He behave?

The God does not pick on the handi cap; how can Love even find a fault?
The God can only turn His other cheek, and allow division to divide itself.

He will Love when, while another gets stepped down, One gets stepped up.

The God does not abide in every corner of His omnipotence, and this is how we may know ...

The God knows when man has reached the age of accountability, as He loses sight of the man.
That He cannot, then, generously provide saddens the all powerful God; yet, it is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.

This implies, the God does not see a man once he has reached the age of accountability.
The God desires the man to respond so He may further employ His Love.

The God will generously provide when the voice of the man is heard, as this too is an ordinance, whereby, He abides.
There is no evidence what will occur if Adam hides and does not answer.

Only that he will live when he exposes himself and responds.

Heaven is not all it is cracked up to be.
Obviously things like envy, greed and hate are also attributes of those beings that occupy Heaven.

Not necessarily ...

How can this be? haven't we always been told that Heaven is, well.... Heaven, right?

First, the God has not made the blueprints of His mansion available for public record.
He has made, available to the public, blueprints for the salvation of man & agape Love.

Second, the God's teammates have asserted Heaven is, forthright, truly a mystery.
Any perception established therein is likely based on avoiding life's obstacles.

We imagine things the best we can; this does not make such images true.

Third, as in Eden, deceit likely called the watchers to the sphere.
Upon entrance, are they not confined within the constraints of "sin"?

Or rather, unfulfilled Love.

"Sin" is the god of the sphere's law; not the God of Life's.
This implies such substance finds birthright within the sphere.

This is the place where all the good people are supposed to go and drink milk and honey and never ever experience a bad day for the rest
of eternity, right?

The present opinion suggests it is the dwelling for the second species that will evolve from the first, humankind.
The human species will always inhabit the earth, yet, it will likely be remodeled before they are truly settled in.

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : spelling


Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary
The Apostle of the Skeptics writes:

"...picture me alone in that room ... night after night, feeling ... the steady, unrelenting approach of Him
whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by caldron68, posted 12-07-2008 7:25 PM caldron68 has responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 5 of 106 (490792)
12-08-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Re God and devil
Hi caldron68,

Welcome to EvC.

Everyone has an opinion so I will express mine.

God created the devil. He was perfect and still is.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God claimed to create evil. The devil is evil.

Therefore God created the devil to be the devil he is.

God set the devil up as the ruler, prince of the earth when created.

The devil is still the prince, ruler of the earth until Jesus comes and sets up His kingdom at the second coming.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The prince is still in charge. So he has not been demoted from his job.

caldron68 writes:

This is the place where all the good people are supposed to go and drink milk and honey and never ever experience a bad day for the rest of eternity, right?

Wrong.

All of those who are born again and their names written in the Lamb's book of Life is going to spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in Revelation 21:

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

That is what Heaven is.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by caldron68, posted 12-07-2008 7:25 PM caldron68 has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 106 (490796)
12-08-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
God claimed to create evil. The devil is evil.

Therefore God created the devil to be the devil he is.

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?

How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?

If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?

How is the creation of Satan different?


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 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has responded

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 657 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 7 of 106 (490803)
12-08-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
12-08-2008 4:06 PM


Re: Re God and devil
How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?

Knowingly creating evil is doing evil.

Here is an anaolgy I like to use in explaining the ridiculousness of morality based on the Bible. I am a father which is what Christians themselves call God i.e. Father. My 4 year old daughter is very curious and intelligent. I place a box of matches within her reach on the coffee table and told her not to play with them and then walk out of the room. I sit behind in a seperate building with a camera recording all the events that take place. I patiently watch as she looks in the matchbox, takes out a match, starts playing with it, then lights the house on fire and dies in the process. Who placed the instrument of her destruction within her reach? Who is at fault? Who is going to jail for the rest of their lives (or possibly be executed). Who is a sick, maniachal, sadistic, evil sociopath?


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 8 of 106 (490806)
12-08-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Resistance Builds Character
caldron68 writes:

The topic up for discussion is God and Satan. Specifically, why did God create Satan and more generally, why does God allow Satan to influence man on Earth?

1) God never actually created an evil Satan. God created an Angelic Lucifer who desired to fall away.

The way I see it, Satan is the temperer, much as steel is formed from iron being tempered. Just as muscles become stronger by working against resistance, human character becomes stronger by working against Satans wiles.

I believe that God has foreknowledge and that yes, God did foreknow that Lucifer would become Satan and that humans themselves would be exposed to evil as well as good.

To me, this is not that big of a problem. How would our character ever be allowed to grow were it not exposed to challenge?

Edited by Phat, : fixed quote


"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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 Message 1 by caldron68, posted 12-07-2008 7:25 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 9 of 106 (490807)
12-08-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
12-08-2008 4:06 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?

That is easy if there was no evil, man would have no choice.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 4:06 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 106 (490808)
12-08-2008 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-08-2008 6:11 PM


Re: Re God and devil
=StragglerWhy would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?

That is easy if there was no evil, man would have no choice.

Are all human choices between good and evil? Can you substantiate this claim?
Does evil really need to exist for choice to exist?
Can choices exist without the existence of evil?
Are not most choices in life completely devoid of an evil option?

Straggler writes:

How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?

If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?

How is the creation of Satan different?

Can you answer this?


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 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 6:11 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 11 of 106 (490809)
12-08-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DevilsAdvocate
12-08-2008 5:03 PM


Re: Re God and devil
first of all, as I said before, God did not create an evil Satan. Satan chose evil. Perhaps we could ask God why evil was allowed to exist, however.

But lets take your daughter analogy a step further. Say that you, as a Father, could control your daughters environment and exposure to outside influences. Would it be more humane for you to keep her on the family farm her whole life where she was never exposed to manipulative boyfriends, crazy city nightlife, and a competitive job market?

The answer is no, you would allow her to be exposed to the harshness of the world...trusting that she would be equipped to deal with the challenge and adversities to be encountered.

Perhaps God feels the same way in allowing His creation to experience evil as well as good influences.


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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 657 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 12 of 106 (490810)
12-08-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-08-2008 6:30 PM


Re: Re God and devil
But lets take your daughter analogy a step further. Say that you, as a Father, could control your daughters environment and exposure to outside influences. Would it be more humane for you to keep her on the family farm her whole life where she was never exposed to manipulative boyfriends, crazy city nightlife, and a competitive job market?

Except that was not the case with Adam and Eve. They had no exposure to evil. They were innocent in a similar manner in which a small child who has not matured or been exposed to the big wide world. Small children do not fully understand the difference between right and wrong. In fact they have to be indocrtrinated with this sense of right and wrong. According, to the Bible it wasn't until Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Good and Evil that they understood the consequences of their actions (the difference between good and evil and its consequences). Thus my analogy of the little child and the box of matches still stands. It wasn't until after the child lit the match and observe the house catch on fire that she MAY have begun to understand the seriousness of her actions. By than it was too late though. I have a four year old daughter and know this psychological phenomena to be a fact. Only as a child is educated and taught what is acceptable ("good") and not acceptable ("evil") by society over years and years is that child or young adult capable of making informed and educated decisions and held fully culpible for their actions. Either way the father who fails to intervene is guilty not the innocent child for what transpires.

And to respond to your extention of my analogy, would I as a father go out, find my daughter under the influence of corrupting elements (influenced by Satan) and committing a crime (sinning), and shoot her in the head (send her to hell). No. The analogy really doesn't carry over very well at this point. I find no parallel to God sending all unbelievers to eternal torture and damnation. I find a difficult parallel even with the most vile people on Earth.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
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 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-08-2008 6:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 13 of 106 (490818)
12-08-2008 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Straggler
12-08-2008 6:19 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,

Straggler writes:

Does evil really need to exist for choice to exist?

Good and evil would have to exist to have a choice between good and evil.

Straggler writes:

Straggler writes:

How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?

If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?

How is the creation of Satan different?

Can you answer this?

First thing, the devil is not responsible for any decision man makes.
Second thing God is not responsible for any decision man makes.

So there is no way to compare to your example.

Why would God be evil for creating evil?

Scientist developed a drug called vioxx which killed untold thousands of people.

Are those scientist evil?

Hospitals in the US were responsible for an average of 195,000 preventable, in-hospital medical errors in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Info

Are hospitals evil?

BTW heart disease and cancer were the only causes of more deaths than the Hospitals.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
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caldron68
Member (Idle past 1396 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 14 of 106 (490819)
12-08-2008 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate
12-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: Re God and devil
quote:

Except that was not the case with Adam and Eve. They had no exposure to evil. They were innocent in a similar manner in which a small child who has not matured or been exposed to the big wide world. Small children do not fully understand the difference between right and wrong. In fact they have to be indocrtrinated with this sense of right and wrong. According, to the Bible it wasn't until Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Good and Evil that they understood the consequences of their actions (the difference between good and evil and its consequences).

Ah, but this is eactly why I started this thread. Adam and Eve would have eventually discovered evil all by themselves. Satan was not a required factor in this equation. Evil did not come into existence with the creation of Lucifer, or Lucifers mutation from choir boy to super human evil doer. Free will alone is enough to allow man to do the wrong things, to get into trouble, to make mistakes, to learn from his experiences. No devil is required. So to say that Adam and Eve had no exposure to evil is incorrect. Given enough time, they would have gotten into plenty of trouble. Just as the child is told not to play with matches, but goes ahead anyway and either creates a house fire or simply burns a few fingers, a lesson is learned and knowledge of good vs. bad is established.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from a specific tree, but they did anyway. Considering that Adam and Eve were like children at that point in time, was it the right thing to do to unleash hell on Earth? Kick the children out of the garden, condemn every single human from that point on to carry the burden for this transgression? I mean really, God just didn't punish Adam and Eve with a little slap on the wrist. He changed the very foundation of their existance.

I also want to address some of the previous comments that have been made, but I'll refrain from doing that in this particular response and perhaps start another one.

Cheers,
Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2008 7:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

    
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 657 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 15 of 106 (490820)
12-08-2008 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
12-08-2008 8:20 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Scientist developed a drug called vioxx which killed untold thousands of people.

Are those scientist evil?

If those scientists had omniscient forknowledge that the drug they created would kill thousands of people than I would say yes. However, people are not omniscient, but your god supposedly is.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 8:20 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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