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Author Topic:   God and Satan
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 512 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 46 of 106 (491415)
12-15-2008 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
12-15-2008 7:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
ICANT writes:

Myself writes:

So what is the point you are trying to make?

My point was you don't have the foggiest idea what you are trying to talk about.

Instead of making an ass out of yourself by dragging the discussion off-topic you may want to read previous posts to see what I was talking about.

ICANT writes:

In other words you did what you said those false prophets did. You took scripture out of contest to back up what you wanted to say.

You mean this scripture:

Matthew 13:49-50 writes:

You were presenting these scriptures to back up your claim that mankind goes to the lake of fire because of the act of sin.

You were presenting these scriptures to back up your claim that mankind goes to the lake of fire because of the act of sin. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sure sounds like God is sending people to hell because they are wicked to me?

ICANT writes:

So yes I did rebutt your argument.

I saw nothing in the scriptures you quoted that stated that a person is not going to hell because of the act of sin.

That is one of the main tenants of the Christian faith. Go read your Bible and understand your own religion. Specifically Romans 6:23 and Matthew 25:31-46.

ICANT writes:

I have discussed what the KJV Bible says on the subjects before us.

Let me guess. I am talking to a KJV only nut, right? Only the KJV is the divine word of God, nothing else. Please don't get me started.

If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.

So do you believe that everyone is going to heaven? What crooked road are you taking this discussion and how is this relevent to my original question of why a righteous God would put an choice to someone who does not have a full understanding of the eternal consequences and repricussions of their action?

And why am I defending your own religion using your book. This is ludicrous. It is all a crock of shit anyways.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2008 7:03 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1252 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 47 of 106 (491422)
12-15-2008 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
12-15-2008 7:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?

If you care to rebutt John 3:16-18 which tell us.
God loved us.
God gave a sacrifice for us.
Whosoever believes should have everlasting life.
God did not send His Son to condemn the world.
The world was already condemned.
He that believeth is not condemned.
He that believeth not is condemned already.

If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.

No need for scripture. How about a just a little common sense?

God loved us
Past tense. He loved his creation, knew exactly what he had created and then threw man out on his ear for a small infraction of the rules.

God gave a sacrifice for us
ONLY AFTER DROWNING US, BURNING US AND PUTTING US TO THE SWORD. And even then ONLY in a symbolic way did he give us Jesus as a sacrifice.

Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life
And what of those people who will never hear the word? Are they condemned to hell too? Too bad God decided to make himself known to only those in a very small, remote corner of the Earth and then only to the chosen few. Everybody else, too freakin bad.

God did not send his Son to condemn the world
Right, God had already done that. There wasn't anything left for Jesus to condemn. Oh! but wait there's more. God DOES promise to send Jesus back to Earth (Jesus 2.0 if you will) where he WILL condemn the world and everything upon it. How many cold starts does God need to get it right?

The world was already condemned
Yes, by the ever loving creator.

He that believeth is not condemned
Too late! There's a large gap between the time of the garden and the time that Jesus walked the Earth. What about those men that lived during this time? I guess these men are just SOL or they are being held to a different standard.

He that believeth not is already condemned
Thanks for that. We have no choice in the matter. It's not a matter of believe and enjoy the fruits of your belief, but believe or else! What an ego! Why does God REQUIRE us to believe or else? Can't we just have a nice separation from God instead of the fires of hell?

If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.
Sorry, this turkey is done anyway. You cannot use the Bible to refute the Bible any more than you can use the Bible to affirm the Bible.

It's a crock! It's ridiculous and it is the reason why we have religious morons flying airplanes into buildings. Face it, the world would be much better off if logic and common sense replaced faith and prayer. God gave you a brain and an ability to think and reason. Religion would rather that you park your brain and your ability to reason at the door before entering.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2008 7:03 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2008 3:16 PM caldron68 has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 48 of 106 (491629)
12-18-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by caldron68
12-15-2008 9:23 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Past tense. He loved his creation, knew exactly what he had created and then threw man out on his ear for a small infraction of the rules.

Some of us (Christians) do no see Adam's act as "a small infraction of the rules". Rather he brought a kind of poison into man which assured that his discendents would be constituted with an evil foreign nature.

For example, if a mother warns a child not to drink a bottle of poison, and the child disobeys, it has two problems:

1.) An infraction of the mother's rule.
2.) The system of the child has been poisoned.

The constitution of man's being having been altered created a huge problem. It even plunged the creation into disharmony. While I don't understand everything about this, I do understand that the act of Adam caused humanity and the natural environment to collapse.

Secondly, the Bible's teaching on this is not as frivolous as you would like to make it. The principle of one man's act having universal enfluence on mankind worked not only against humanity but also for humanity.

If you read Romans chapter 5 you will see that Christ's act of obedience has an opposite effect in constituting millions righteous before God and insuring that they can become "partakers of the divine nature"

So the same principle that worked against us God uses to work for us (who believe the work of salvation which He has done).


God gave a sacrifice for us
ONLY AFTER DROWNING US, BURNING US AND PUTTING US TO THE SWORD. And even then ONLY in a symbolic way did he give us Jesus as a sacrifice.

You seem to be excercising you skill to look at the ironinc and negative side of things. You would probably make a good satirist or comedian as this is a skill they need to be successful.

But you personally were not drowned. You personally have not been burned. And maybe you should start by looking back over the last, let us say, year. Think of how many things you could possibly be thankful to God for.

I mean even though there have been some problems in your life God has also provided you with many days of happiness. Discussing theological themes with you would be improved of you could get a little of that cynical bias out of your thoughts.

As you look back over the last year, is there nothing for which you could possibly be thankful to God?

Now concerning Christ's death. It is not just symbolic but it is applicable. When you receive the Spirit of the resurrected Christ into your human spirit, that death He experienced on the cross actually acts to kill off spiritual and psychological germs which are working in you. You, as one who is indwelt with by Jesus, can actially learn to utlize what He did on the cross to crucify bad habits and kill off harmful character traits until you are transformed into a person who expresses Jesus in his living.

This is not to mention that His shed blood can cleanse a man's entire life's record of every sin from before God. The believer in Jesus is viewed by God as having ALREADY been judged. He is before God as if he had never sinned.

This has tremendous benefits, one of which is eternal life.


And what of those people who will never hear the word? Are they condemned to hell too? Too bad God decided to make himself known to only those in a very small, remote corner of the Earth and then only to the chosen few. Everybody else, too freakin bad.

This is not a problem. But some more reading of the Bible seriously would help you.

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is a living Person. So if anyone anywhere in the world comes to the Father it will be through Jesus Christ.

Having said that, you should realize that that is different from saying "No one comes to the Father except through Christianity."

I don't worry anymore about trying to assure every hypothetical situation. The Judge of the whole earth will do justly.

An evangelist like me would tend to remind you that whatever the situation of those people is, that is not your situation. So as one who needs to decide what to do with His offer of salvation, you have to consider not their situation, but your situation. You have heard the good news that Jesus is the Savior, the Lord.

As an evangelist I would say then, what will you do with Jesus the living Person? You are NOT the blind, deaf, and dumb aboriginal in the forests of the Amazon in 500 BC. What will you do with Christ in your situation?


Right, God had already done that. There wasn't anything left for Jesus to condemn. Oh! but wait there's more. God DOES promise to send Jesus back to Earth (Jesus 2.0 if you will) where he WILL condemn the world and everything upon it. How many cold starts does God need to get it right?

You're not as clever as you think you are. Should I assume that your cleverness also means that you are wise?

While all this time is elapsing between the first physical coming of Christ and the second physical return of Christ, He is amassing an army.

God uses time to spread the gospel of grace to all the world.

Of course once one is forgiven he may not voluntarily turn over all of his being to be saturated with the divine nature that Christ has brought into him. Since some will cooperate with sanctification and some will not, those who will will be rewarded to riegn with Christ over the earth in His return. They are called those who overcome.

The defeated ones will be disciplined but they will not lose their gift of eternal redemption.

So the time elapsing is used by Christ to accumlate enough overcoming ones down through the ages to be co-kings with Him in His millennial kingdom. They are more than conquerors and are awarded the honor of sharing His coming reign over the recovered earth for 1,000 years.

If you read carefully you'll see that before the age of eternity (Revelation 21 and 22) there is the preliminary 1,000 years millennial kingdom.

Those through the ages since Christ's incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, will not be disappointed nor feel they wasted their lives. This corporate victorious army taken from all those saved ones who were cooperative in the church age, will be the Manchild (Rev. 12) of overcomers who will co-reign with the King of kings.


The world was already condemned
Yes, by the ever loving creator.

Let me stop here and ask you about your beliefs.

Why are you here on the earth? I mean for what purpose were you born?

If you have something superior to the eternal purpose of God in Christ, I would like to hear about it.

So please tell us. What is the meaning of your existence here? Why does your heart beat and your lungs breath?

You may have something better than living unto God. What is it?
Here's your chance to enlighten me what the real deal is. Go for it. I am all ears.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by caldron68, posted 12-15-2008 9:23 PM caldron68 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by caldron68, posted 12-18-2008 9:03 PM jaywill has responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1252 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 49 of 106 (491648)
12-18-2008 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jaywill
12-18-2008 3:16 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?

Some of us (Christians) do no see Adam's act as "a small infraction of the rules". Rather he brought a kind of poison into man which assured that his discendents would be constituted with an evil foreign nature.

For example, if a mother warns a child not to drink a bottle of poison, and the child disobeys, it has two problems:

1.) An infraction of the mother's rule.
2.) The system of the child has been poisoned.

The constitution of man's being having been altered created a huge problem. It even plunged the creation into disharmony. While I don't understand everything about this, I do understand that the act of Adam caused humanity and the natural environment to collapse.

Secondly, the Bible's teaching on this is not as frivolous as you would like to make it. The principle of one man's act having universal enfluence on mankind worked not only against humanity but also for humanity.

If you read Romans chapter 5 you will see that Christ's act of obedience has an opposite effect in constituting millions righteous before God and insuring that they can become "partakers of the divine nature"

So the same principle that worked against us God uses to work for us (who believe the work of salvation which He has done).


God set up the system, placed Adam and Eve within the system and told them not to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve are like children at this point and do not understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They are tempted to eat of the fruit by another of God's creations (Lucifer/Satan) and are punished severely for doing so. Not only are Adam and Eve individually punished, but all of mankind is punished because of a child like disobedience.

Your analogy of this action does not even come close to covering what happened to Adam, Eve and the rest of mankind. For your analogy to work, the Mother would not only have to punish the child for being disobedient, but she would also have to punish the child's children and then their children's children etc, etc..


You seem to be excercising you skill to look at the ironinc and negative side of things. You would probably make a good satirist or comedian as this is a skill they need to be successful.

But you personally were not drowned. You personally have not been burned. And maybe you should start by looking back over the last, let us say, year. Think of how many things you could possibly be thankful to God for.

I mean even though there have been some problems in your life God has also provided you with many days of happiness. Discussing theological themes with you would be improved of you could get a little of that cynical bias out of your thoughts.

As you look back over the last year, is there nothing for which you could possibly be thankful to God?

Now concerning Christ's death. It is not just symbolic but it is applicable. When you receive the Spirit of the resurrected Christ into your human spirit, that death He experienced on the cross actually acts to kill off spiritual and psychological germs which are working in you. You, as one who is indwelt with by Jesus, can actially learn to utlize what He did on the cross to crucify bad habits and kill off harmful character traits until you are transformed into a person who expresses Jesus in his living.

This is not to mention that His shed blood can cleanse a man's entire life's record of every sin from before God. The believer in Jesus is viewed by God as having ALREADY been judged. He is before God as if he had never sinned.

This has tremendous benefits, one of which is eternal life.


Of course I was not personally drowned or burned or put to the sword. That's not the point. The point is that these things DID happen. It's right there in the book and it cannot be ignored.

Perhaps you can overlook these devious deeds because you THINK that God has blessed you and your life. I can't. Yes, good things have happened to me in my life but I don't automatically assume that these things are the direct result of a loving, compassionate God. The good things that have happened to me are a direct result of plain old hard work.

How can you possibly enter into a loving relationship with God when you know that he ordered the murder of children and infants? And more than once, I might add. Of course, you'll find some way to squirm out of this problem and I can't wait to hear the answer.


This is not a problem. But some more reading of the Bible seriously would help you.

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. But Jesus Christ is a living Person. So if anyone anywhere in the world comes to the Father it will be through Jesus Christ.

Having said that, you should realize that that is different from saying "No one comes to the Father except through Christianity."

I don't worry anymore about trying to assure every hypothetical situation. The Judge of the whole earth will do justly.

An evangelist like me would tend to remind you that whatever the situation of those people is, that is not your situation. So as one who needs to decide what to do with His offer of salvation, you have to consider not their situation, but your situation. You have heard the good news that Jesus is the Savior, the Lord.

As an evangelist I would say then, what will you do with Jesus the living Person? You are NOT the blind, deaf, and dumb aboriginal in the forests of the Amazon in 500 BC. What will you do with Christ in your situation?

Oh please!! This is a huge problem. Your basic advice here is not to worry about those that have not heard the word and worry about myself. If no one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then a whole lot of people are NOT going to come to the Father. Of course, you as a Christian absolutely believe that your way is the right way and the only reason you believe that is because that's how you were raised. There are literally billions of other people that were not raised as Christian and they also believe that they are absolutely right and it is YOU who is going to burn forever in the pits of hell.

Sorry, did God not see this little problem coming? The whole my God is better than your God thing? Then again, maybe he did. Perhaps that's the whole point. We don't want heaven to be too crowded now do we.


You're not as clever as you think you are. Should I assume that your cleverness also means that you are wise?

While all this time is elapsing between the first physical coming of Christ and the second physical return of Christ, He is amassing an army.

God uses time to spread the gospel of grace to all the world.

Of course once one is forgiven he may not voluntarily turn over all of his being to be saturated with the divine nature that Christ has brought into him. Since some will cooperate with sanctification and some will not, those who will will be rewarded to riegn with Christ over the earth in His return. They are called those who overcome.

The defeated ones will be disciplined but they will not lose their gift of eternal redemption.

So the time elapsing is used by Christ to accumlate enough overcoming ones down through the ages to be co-kings with Him in His millennial kingdom. They are more than conquerors and are awarded the honor of sharing His coming reign over the recovered earth for 1,000 years.

If you read carefully you'll see that before the age of eternity (Revelation 21 and 22) there is the preliminary 1,000 years millennial kingdom.

Those through the ages since Christ's incarnation, life, death, resurrection, and ascension, will not be disappointed nor feel they wasted their lives. This corporate victorious army taken from all those saved ones who were cooperative in the church age, will be the Manchild (Rev. 12) of overcomers who will co-reign with the King of kings.


Revelations is a crock of crap and has been dismissed by a very large list of famous evangelicals and critical thinkers, including, but not limited to:

Robert G. Ingersoll
Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther
John Calvin

Here the reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

It's vile, it's offensive and it proves the point that God is cruel and capricious.


Let me stop here and ask you about your beliefs.

Why are you here on the earth? I mean for what purpose were you born?

If you have something superior to the eternal purpose of God in Christ, I would like to hear about it.

So please tell us. What is the meaning of your existence here? Why does your heart beat and your lungs breath?

You may have something better than living unto God. What is it?
Here's your chance to enlighten me what the real deal is. Go for it. I am all ears.


Ok, here it is with both barrels. I CAN LIVE MY LIFE IN A JUST AND MEANINGFUL MANNER AND NO GOD THREATENING ME WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION IS REQUIRED. HOW'S THAT?

Evidently YOU cannot live your life this way. You require a God looking at your every action because you believe that that is what's happening and instead of being good for the very sake of being good, you're good because you believe it will buy you brownie points with the big man upstairs.

I believe that living the Christian life is an honorable way of living your life. Just keep your beliefs out of my government and schools. The place to learn about God is in church and NOT in our public schools. Concerned about creationism vs. evolution? Teach your side in church, and as you said, don't worry about those that don't hear the word.

Cheers,
--Caldron68


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2008 3:16 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 7:51 AM caldron68 has not yet responded
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 3:05 PM caldron68 has responded
 Message 58 by Agobot, posted 12-20-2008 9:56 AM caldron68 has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 50 of 106 (491665)
12-19-2008 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by caldron68
12-18-2008 9:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
God set up the system, placed Adam and Eve within the system and told them not to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve are like children at this point and do not understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They are tempted to eat of the fruit by another of God's creations (Lucifer/Satan) and are punished severely for doing so.

You are suggesting that there should be no consequences for disobedience to God - He should warn of something but not inforce it.

Besides what you call "punished severely" was largly the result of being corrupted by being placed under another master.


Not only are Adam and Eve individually punished, but all of mankind is punished because of a child like disobedience.

And the same principle works on our behalf in Christ. Not only is the Son of God righteous before God but those united with Him are justified.

Besides this our troubles are due mostly to not agreeing with God that we are sinners. No He is not condemning us for eating of the forbidden tree as Adam per se. We are condemned because savation has come and we refuse to believe in Christ. We reject the salvation in disbelief.


Your analogy of this action does not even come close to covering what happened to Adam, Eve and the rest of mankind.

It comes pretty close. The Apostle Paul said that the evil spirit is now operating in the sons of disobedience:

"And you, dead in your offenses and sins, in which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience, Among whom we also all conducted ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath." (Eph.2:1-3).

Here the Satanic spirit is the "ruler of the authority of the air". But this evil being is "operating in the sons of disobedience". That is akin to poison operating in victim's body. And it is constituting the victim a child of wrath - headed for judgment because of the many offenses committed.

So the analogy of internalized poison is IMO effective. I think it is more effective than speaking of "a minor infraction".

"For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were CONSTITUTED sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be CONSTITUTED righteous" (Rom.5 19)

When some people complain about so called "Original Sin" I try to point them to the parellel "Original Righteousness" in Jesus Christ.


For your analogy to work, the Mother would not only have to punish the child for being disobedient, but she would also have to punish the child's children and then their children's children etc, etc..

What I notice is that immediatly after the unfortunate fall occured God promises to crush the instigator. He promises salvation. He did not wait 2000 years to promise. He did so right away.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; He will bruise you on the head, But you will bruise him on the heel." (Genesis 3:15)

We certainly take this as a prophecy of the coming of the Son of God. For He alone was a woman's seed having been born of a virgin. All other places in the Bible only speak of a man's seed.

His coming crushes the enemy but causes His own death and resurrection to take place in the process. He bruise the Devil's head but is bruised on His heel at Calvary doing so.

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)

When we receive Christ He begins to destroy the work of the ruler of the authority of the air in us. The Spirit of Christ begins to operate in us nullifying the work of the Satanic spirit. It is truly wonderful when we believe and cooperate.

Of course I was not personally drowned or burned or put to the sword. That's not the point. The point is that these things DID happen.

It is against the backround of God's manifest hatred for sin that we can appreciate what it meant for Christ to die for all the sins of the whole world. So I think that instances like the flood were needed to teach us that sin is an abomination to God and what it meant for Christ to carry up our sins in His body onto the cross.


It's right there in the book and it cannot be ignored.

I am not ignoring it at all. The terrible conquest of Canaan, the flood of Noah, the judgment of Sodom, all these firmly establish God's righteous execution against sins. But seeing His hatred for it helps me to understand what it meant for Him to send Jesus to carry up all of our sins to be judged on His cross at Calvary.

That is ONE atoning act which is able to justify every human sinner throughout all human history. That was a tremendous act of love that will take eternity for us to appreciate.

But God had to demonstrate and establish that sins are an abomination to Him. The judgments in the Old Testament help us to see this.

It is too bad that you don't pay adaquate attention to Noah, family and animals in the ark. It is too bad that you don't notice Rehab and the whore house saved by His mercy at Jericho. It is too bad that you did not also notice the saving of Lot, his wife and daughters from Sodom.

A little attention to the other aspects of these stories I think would round your thinking out a little more. You seem overly bitter.


Perhaps you can overlook these devious deeds because you THINK that God has blessed you and your life.

I do not charge God with any devious deeds. I believe that God is absolutely righteous. He is absolutely right. It is almost terrible.

We have arrived in a universe of a God who is not only eternal and holy and glorious as a Creator. But He is absolutely just and righteous.

There are things which are hard for me to understand. I admit that. But all in all I have been convinced that God is absolutely righteous. Furthermore, He gave life. He alone is most qualified to take it away.

When I look at the life of Jesus Christ who is God become a man, I do see that He is so righteous and good and merciful. But He is just and cared nothing for Himself but only for the will of His Father in an absolute way. I came to the Old Testament through the study of Jesus in the New Testament first, I think.


I can't. Yes, good things have happened to me in my life but I don't automatically assume that these things are the direct result of a loving, compassionate God.

You cannot authomatically say 'Thank you God'. But just in case there is this God I don't see how it could hurt to be thankful. What would you lose?

If one prayed "Just in case there is a God, I want to thank this God that I have a sound mind, no cancer, I am able to see, I have many fortunate things which I take for granted. Others in fact may not be so fortunate." I don't see what you have to lose. But it is up to you.

God is not going away because some people don't want to be thankful or because they wish or hope there is no God. I know one is happier giving thanks to God, and with far less anxiety about life.


The good things that have happened to me are a direct result of plain old hard work.

Then could thank God for good health which allows you to rise up out of bed in the morning and go to work.

Again, it is your choice, But I have found that I was much happier and with much less anxiety when I learned to be thankful to God. Mostly I thank Him for Himself.


How can you possibly enter into a loving relationship with God when you know that he ordered the murder of children and infants?

I love my earthly dad. Though there were instances when I did not understand what he was doing.

If you want to read through the Bible and only consider His harshest acts that is up to you. There is more than plenty of instances of mercy, patience, kindness, forebearance, long suffering showed by God in the Bible.

Did you read about Jesus?


And more than once, I might add. Of course, you'll find some way to squirm out of this problem and I can't wait to hear the answer.

I don't need to squirm. The Bible says "Behold the kindness and severity of God". I consider Him, like anyone else, would have not just one side of His character, but more than one side.

If you insist that from the first page of Genesis, through all 66 books of the Bible you see nothing but slaughtering children, I would say that tells me more about you than it does about God.

Canaan's adults were warned and judged. God told Abraham that He would not judge them for another 400 years because their iniquities had not yet gotten so bad. Then after four centries of God's forebearance He added an additional 40 years as the Canaanites saw the Israel wander in the wildreness.

THat is at least 440 years of God's patient forebearance before He brought in the judgment up that society.

Now the killing of the babies is really harsh. I do not ignore that. But I do not think that that effected their resurrection and status for eternal life. Somehow, I trust the He is just and fair though those kids were killed.

I wonder if you show a similar concern for the millions of innocent children aborted.

Once again, I think it would round you off a little to consider the latter pages of the Bible in the Gospels and examine the life of Jesus. He is God become a man and dwelling among us.

How did He conduct Himself ? You might consider the Gospel of Luke.
If you want to stay stuck on the conquest of Canaan in Joshua no one can stop you. As for me, I want to continue reading to see what else happens.

Incidently, did you recall that there is one whole book set aside and dedicated to the subject of God's RELUCTANCE to judge a nation? That is the book of Jonah. This entire book is reserved for that subject. Israel's prophet Jonah was eager that their enemies would "get it" from God. But God shows His reluctance. He would rather have mercy on a repentent nation.

So the point was aptly made that He takes no pleasure in harsh judgment but would delight to forgive. Think on it just a little and read Jonah too.

Oh please!! This is a huge problem. Your basic advice here is not to worry about those that have not heard the word and worry about myself.

Our commission as believers is to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. As an unbeliever in Christ (I only assume of you) you first need to respond your own self, to the coming of Christ.

It is good that you are concerned about everyone else. But you can do nothing about it yet. As it is your mouth is spreading more and more unbelief, probably. Your arguments could be the reason that more will not turn to Jesus. Their minds will be poisoned by your slanders against God and opposition to the Gospel.

So first you need to be reconciled to God.


If no one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, then a whole lot of people are NOT going to come to the Father. Of course, you as a Christian absolutely believe that your way is the right way and the only reason you believe that is because that's how you were raised.

It is not because I simply was raised that way in all regards. I had my period of staunch unbelief and agnosticism.

Secondly, even if I WAS raised to be a believer in Jesus, that in and off itself does not mean that the Gospel therefore cannot be true. One can raise a child to believe that which is truth.

Lastly, I do not think that the only angle from which one can understand the Bible is through the question "Who gets saved and Who gets lost?" I don't think that is the only lense through which one can appreciate the Person of Jesus.

My coming to Jesus initially was not about getting saved from damnation. That was not the issue. It was being saved from the emptiness of a hollow life. I think a life without Christ is vanity. We have a God shaped whole in our being that only He can fill.

Many people receive Jesus for this reason. It is not pie in the sky which is important, or heavenly afterlife. It was a thirst for life's fulness and richness which attracted me to Jesus.

Now in the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:38,39)

I am thrilled to be able to have the Spirit of this Son of God flowing in me as rivers of living water. He is so beautiful and victorious. He is not only a good man. He is gloriously good with divine splendour. He is such a man - a man who expresses the highest morality and the divine attributes. His human virtues are glorious.

What a honor that I could receive His Spirit into me to live in me. For Jesus is in a form in which we can receive Him into our innermost spirit - "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

I simply have found nothing and no one as valuable or as precious as Jesus. Nothing can compete with Him. Nothing can compare with Him. And He quenches my thirst for life.

He said He would flow out of our innermost being as rivers of living water. That is plural rivers. There is a river for my mind. There is a river for my emotions. There is a river for my will. There is a river for my memory. There is a river for my conscience. There is even a river for my body.

He said: "I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10)

You heard the song "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones. Life on earth without the Holy Spirit of the resurrected Jesus is really void of the deep satisfaction that we all need.

You heard Jimi Hendrix sing:

"I don't live today. Maybe I'll live tomorrow. All I know is that I don't live today. I feel like I am living at the bottom of a grave.".

How true. Without the Holy Spirit we really are "dead in offenses and sins".

You heard the song about the man "Searching for a Heart of Gold. I've been to Red Wood. I've been to Hollywood. I've been searching for a heart of gold. And I'm getting old!"

How true. I tell you that this Jesus Christ is the "Heart of Gold.". He loves you and died and rose for you.

Forgive me. But I am going to cut off posting now and go to my knees and pray for you. I'm a kind of debating evangelist, you know?

Talk with you latter perhaps. Maybe I'll respond to your other comments.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by caldron68, posted 12-18-2008 9:03 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2008 8:50 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 56 by Bailey, posted 12-19-2008 11:36 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 51 of 106 (491668)
12-19-2008 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jaywill
12-19-2008 7:51 AM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Jaywill writes:
I am thrilled to be able to have the Spirit of this Son of God flowing in me as rivers of living water. He is so beautiful and victorious. He is not only a good man. He is gloriously good with divine splendour. He is such a man - a man who expresses the highest morality and the divine attributes. His human virtues are glorious.

What a honor that I could receive His Spirit into me to live in me. For Jesus is in a form in which we can receive Him into our innermost spirit - "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

I simply have found nothing and no one as valuable or as precious as Jesus. Nothing can compete with Him. Nothing can compare with Him. And He quenches my thirst for life.

He said He would flow out of our innermost being as rivers of living water. That is plural rivers. There is a river for my mind. There is a river for my emotions. There is a river for my will. There is a river for my memory. There is a river for my conscience. There is even a river for my body.

He said: "I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly." (John 10:10)

You heard the song "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" by the Rolling Stones. Life on earth without the Holy Spirit of the resurrected Jesus is really void of the deep satisfaction that we all need.

You heard Jimi Hendrix sing:

"I don't live today. Maybe I'll live tomorrow. All I know is that I don't live today. I feel like I am living at the bottom of a grave.".

How true. Without the Holy Spirit we really are "dead in offenses and sins".

You heard the song about the man "Searching for a Heart of Gold. I've been to Red Wood. I've been to Hollywood. I've been searching for a heart of gold. And I'm getting old!"

How true. I tell you that this Jesus Christ is the "Heart of Gold.". He loves you and died and rose for you.

Forgive me. But I am going to cut off posting now and go to my knees and pray for you. I'm a kind of debating evangelist, you know?

Talk with you latter perhaps. Maybe I'll respond to your other comments.

Edited by jaywill, 12-19-2008 06:52 AM: No reason given.

I believe before you said you were a computer programmer, but perhaps you went into the wrong line of work. Or perhaps you should switch and do both at the same time. Maybe the public ministry is what you are suited to do best. Whether these fellas agree or not with the content of your posts as I do , you have a gift for gab. I think this is alot of hard work and study combined with the fact that he knew what you (like Paul) were going to be after your conversion, so this gift was given to you. "We have different gifts according to the grace given us". I dont know if you speak in the public sector, but in my view if you do not you are suppressing a talent.

Message 50, wow. Thats good stuff Maynard.

D Bertot

Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 7:51 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 2:43 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 52 of 106 (491692)
12-19-2008 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dawn Bertot
12-19-2008 8:50 AM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Thanks Bertot.

I do not do computer programming anymore.
I teach music lessons.

I try to pray about what I write.
I was many years a student of Witness Lee. We all tend to
to sound like him, a fact of which I have no shame.

The footnotes of the Bible The Recovery Version has many many of these things written in it in its voluminous study notes.

www.recoveryversion.org

The future is opened to possibilies.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2008 8:50 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-19-2008 6:24 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 53 of 106 (491694)
12-19-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by caldron68
12-18-2008 9:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?

Revelations is a crock of crap and has been dismissed by a very large list of famous evangelicals and critical thinkers, including, but not limited to:
Robert G. Ingersoll
Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther
John Calvin

Here the reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

We know better.

This is beneath argument.


It's vile, it's offensive and it proves the point that God is cruel and capricious.

We know better.

This comment should not be dignified with a reply.

This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not primarily the revelation of horns, locusts, frogs, dragons, earthquakes.

You just don't know what to look for.


Ok, here it is with both barrels. I CAN LIVE MY LIFE IN A JUST AND MEANINGFUL MANNER AND NO GOD THREATENING ME WITH ETERNAL DAMNATION IS REQUIRED. HOW'S THAT?

Notice though you did not tell us what that meaning was.

You just shouted that you can live without fear of damnation and threats, etc.

Seems your Bible is very short, like this:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And God kills some babies. And the rest of you are going to burn in hell forever.

THE END"

It is a stupid caricature, a myopic one sided biased view.

I doubt that you have even read much of the Bible at all. In fact I have doubts about your reading comprehension of anything over a few sentences long, let alone a library of 66 books.


Evidently YOU cannot live your life this way. You require a God looking at your every action because you believe that that is what's happening and instead of being good for the very sake of being good, you're good because you believe it will buy you brownie points with the big man upstairs.

I notice that you didn't say what the meaning of your life was.

Why is that?


I believe that living the Christian life is an honorable way of living your life. Just keep your beliefs out of my government and schools.

Looks to me like you're the one living in dread glancing over the shoulder all the time.

Who said anything about your schools?


The place to learn about God is in church and NOT in our public schools.

That's like "The place to learn about gravity is only the science class room. No where else is it relevant."

Dumb.


Concerned about creationism vs. evolution? Teach your side in church, and as you said, don't worry about those that don't hear the word.

Cheers,

Boy are you a media brainwashed reactionary - a one note ideology.

Cheer up already.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by caldron68, posted 12-18-2008 9:03 PM caldron68 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by caldron68, posted 12-19-2008 5:46 PM jaywill has responded

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 1252 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 54 of 106 (491698)
12-19-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
12-19-2008 3:05 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?

We know better.

This is beneath argument.


You know better than John Calvin and Martin Luther? Really?


We know better.

This comment should not be dignified with a reply.

This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is not primarily the revelation of horns, locusts, frogs, dragons, earthquakes.

You just don't know what to look for.


Ahhh, so now we discover the real problem. If you hadn't noticed from my previous posts, I think you tend to gloss over the bad and glorify the good. Do you have any critical thinking skills at all?


Notice though you did not tell us what that meaning was.

You just shouted that you can live without fear of damnation and threats, etc.

Seems your Bible is very short, like this:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And God kills some babies. And the rest of you are going to burn in hell forever.

THE END"

It is a stupid caricature, a myopic one sided biased view.

I doubt that you have even read much of the Bible at all. In fact I have doubts about your reading comprehension of anything over a few sentences long, let alone a library of 66 books.


WOW! Now that really stings. Here we've only exchanged a few paragraphs and you have doubts about my ability to comprehend anything over a few sentences long! I should say the same about you. Your sentence structure mistakes and spelling errors say a lot about you.

Myopic? I acknowledge both the good and the bad in the bible and it's my view that's myopic? Seems to me that it is YOUR view that is myopic.


I notice that you didn't say what the meaning of your life was.

Why is that?


I'm an engineer Jaywill, not a philosopher. My life has meaning only to me and those that I love and provide for. I live my life the same way you live your life. I do my best every single day to be as kind, compassionate and as honest as I can possibly be. I am judged by my family and by those I interact with on a daily basis. If I am also being judged by a supreme being, so be it, but i will not alter my behavior because that may be the case.


Looks to me like you're the one living in dread glancing over the shoulder all the time.

You wish, but then again, that's how you kind, compassionate, loving Christian types think.


That's like "The place to learn about gravity is only the science class room. No where else is it relevant."

Dumb.


Teach the science behind gravity in Church all you want Jaywill, nobody is stopping you. Just forget about teaching creationism in public schools.

Take your students over to the Creation Museum and introduce them to the solid science behind Young Earth Creationism. Don't forget to check your critical thinking skills at the door.

Cheers,
--Caldron68

Cheers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 3:05 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2008 8:22 AM caldron68 has responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 55 of 106 (491699)
12-19-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jaywill
12-19-2008 2:43 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Jaywill writes:
Thanks Bertot.
I do not do computer programming anymore.
I teach music lessons.

I try to pray about what I write.
I was many years a student of Witness Lee. We all tend to
to sound like him, a fact of which I have no shame.

The footnotes of the Bible The Recovery Version has many many of these things written in it in its voluminous study notes.

www.recoveryversion.org

The future is opened to possibilies.

Thanks is appreciated but not necessary. You understanding of the scriptures is nothing short of impressive, your ability to communicate it is worthy of praise. I enjoy reading your post when I am not posting myself. I wish I had time to read them all but I dont.

Im not aquainted with the Living Stream ministries, is this a part of the J. Witnesses, the reason I asked is you mentioned Witness Lee and I am not familiar with him either. I am sure you are familiar with the Church of Christ, but I dont think there are alot of congregations out east or up north, atleast that is what I have seen from any research I have done.

Thanks for the site, I will take a look at it. Does the 'Recovery version', imply that your leaders thought something was wrong with the others, or is that just an expression?

Thanks again dude, see you around the site.

D Bertot

Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 2:43 PM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Bailey
Member (Idle past 1781 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 56 of 106 (491704)
12-19-2008 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jaywill
12-19-2008 7:51 AM


What was Eve's crime?
Thank you for the exchange.

jaywill writes:

God set up the system, placed Adam and Eve within the system and told them not to eat of the fruit. Adam and Eve are like children at this point and do not understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They are tempted to eat of the fruit by another of God's creations (Lucifer/Satan) and are punished severely for doing so.

You are suggesting that there should be no consequences for disobedience to God - He should warn of something but not inforce it.

You are suggesting disobedience transpired or that the God punishes the ones He loves; which separation from the Truth is greater? The offense did not lay in eating the fruit, but in believing a lie. The Lovebirds were never told to not question the God, and so they cannot be justly accused of such by the serpent or another. This does not alleviate the effects from the tree of knowledge. They are what they are.

Eve chose a good tree for the wrong reasons. She chose it because she was convinced the God was a dunce of sorts. This was likely more offensive than eating from the tree simply because the God declared it good. Nevertheless, we are told numerous times that all trees are good for food, and pleasing to the eye; Eve's ignorance does not successfully negate this. God's 'chosen people' deny the Jesus the God's Glory in birthing His new creation. It is fitting relative religion and the spirit of the anti Jesus deny Adam the God's glory in birthing His first species as well. The parallel is ironic. Sometimes when the lesser of two evils is chosen, the reality evil was chosen fades ...

The God said the Lovebirds were free to eat from any tree in the garden; but they must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when they eat of it they will be exposed to reasoning within reality by their own moral authority (die).

The God does not say 'you can eat from any tree except this one ...'. Nor does the God tempt the man with the godlike qualities associated with the fruit. Motivated by Love, He appears to place a greater value to the species safety when considering the tremendous gain. Not that the God will provide a bias in the first place, otherwise He would have propogated the Tree of Life in the beginning. He said you can eat from any tree, but this one hurts ... it contains good benefits, as all do, but not without suffering corresponding and concurrent effects and consequences.

It is good, as it may provide confirmation to the child of the God and cause him to become even more godlike; a benefit. It is bad, as it is time spent apart from the One who Loves you most, and shit can be confusing without Him. Respectively, He likely suffered greater than us as His reality contains us; distance will only begin to cause our hearts to grow fonder when we acknowledge His voice. It is Life; the species evolving from out of our reality, into the Jesus reality, is still evolving in such a way. The second species will choose their tree for proper reasons. How could the Lovebird's not have been in God's Grace; how could their decision not have been meant to be used to better serve the God and the species? Not because they chose the wrong tree; they chose the only tree they specifically knew. Rather it was because the Lovebirds chose the right tree for the wrong reasons.

This is why it is very plain to see the Lovebirds were not punished, but rather arbitrary effects and consequences manifested, just like the God said. He really has no reason to lie to and punish the ones He loves as far as the present opinion can reason. When employing dogmatic interpretations directly reaching outside of textual parameters, it may be wise to note the serpent decieves the species in 'the beginning'. Reasonably, it follows, the most accepted interpretations are prone to deception; is this not what the Jesus suggests as well? Why shall we expect anyone to embrace Two Trees, when some who choose One rather embace ten commandments instead of Two?

Additionally, the beguiling serpent is judged and punished. Then, the Lovebirds are foretold of more exceedingly valuable Truth and, next, tended to; hardly punishment.

Genesis 3 writes:

21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

When the Lovebirds accepted that provision, any chance of punishment was dissolved; as this was a symbolic sacrafice to protect them from the elements within the sphere and a tangible display of forgiveness, reasonably allowing them within reach of continuous life by accepting the God's Grace. There is a mediator to the God - it is not the 'chosen people', the 'church', the torah, the bible, the serpent or any such thing.

The God does not likely adjust His behavior and ever exceeding Love for Life to better mimick various human misrepresentations of His character. However, our perceptions of Him may change as we propogate various misrepresentations instead of propogating the Truth, and vice versa.

When reality catches up in Colossians we are told the God canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities and shamed them publicly by His victory over them on the cross. If the Lovebirds in the Garden were not forgiven when they accepted the God's symbolic blood sacrafice, than the God is double minded. We are told he is not, which is Truth, but we know we often are ...

The woman appears almost completely pardoned; there is no 'because you have done this' prefix to her interaction. The man's punishment is deflected to the ground; the same ground the serpent crawls on its belly through eating the same 'dust' the species is comprised of. Looks like that is more serpent punishment considering Adam has leather pants and walks upright.

Gen 3:14 writes:


14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life."

All the while getting kicked in the head by the offspring of the woman it decieved ...

Gen 3:15 writes:


15 "And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Apparently the God does not punish those who are decieved, but rather the decievers. He is also able to deflect man's punishment, through direct disobedience, to the ground. According to Genesis, that is how He rolls; the religious spirit largely disagrees.

Besides what you call "punished severely" was largly the result of being corrupted by being placed under another master.

The present opinion agrees with this statement to a large degree; depending what 'placed under another master' means - lol. And I guess your 'corrupted' would have to be replaced with 'made complete'; after all, is the glass half full, or half empty?

While the woman was decieved into reasoning by way of human moral authority, the man willingly placed his fate within such parameters. The Lovebirds continue living, subduing all within the sphere and begin fruitfully multipling as asked. The only difference is the species now reasons by their own logic which entails being decieved and consciously choosing the more difficult path. These are the two seeds of our reality. Granted, such reality lies in stark contrast to utilizing the God's Truth indiscriminately; hence the expression, 'dat boy likes to learn the hard way'. These are still very common practices.

Yet, the God Himself spoke of the 'good' benefit within the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge and the difficulty contained therein. And we know that as soon as the Lovebirds partake of it, they are introduced to the Tree of Life and its benefits. At this point we have graduated to the reality of continous life. So don’t let anyone condemn you for these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. The present opinion suggests the Jesus himself is that reality.

Is this what is meant by 'master', or are you referring to the evil rulers and malignant spiritual authorities within the sphere?

One Love

Edited by Bailey, : grammar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 12-19-2008 7:51 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 34 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 57 of 106 (491709)
12-20-2008 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by caldron68
12-19-2008 5:46 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
You know better than John Calvin and Martin Luther? Really?

Some things, yea. Does that shock you?

God is moving on. He is moving on from the days of Calvin and Luther. He is still opening the Bible's meaning to us. As we draw closer and closer to the second coming of Christ, things which were less clear become more clear.


Ahhh, so now we discover the real problem. If you hadn't noticed from my previous posts, I think you tend to gloss over the bad and glorify the good. Do you have any critical thinking skills at all?

Make your case then.

WOW! Now that really stings. Here we've only exchanged a few paragraphs and you have doubts about my ability to comprehend anything over a few sentences long! I should say the same about you. Your sentence structure mistakes and spelling errors say a lot about you.

I think you're very biased.

Now while you distract the issue about my spelling and sentence structure, get busy and finish what I asked - that is to explain why you are alive and what your purpose in this world is. That is if you have something better than believing Christ.

I'll except "I don't know" as a valid answer.

Now for me, God is "building" a "city" called New Jerusalem. You can read about it in Revelation 21 and 22. It is a symbol of the consummation of the purpose of His creating the universe and mankind in it. God wants to dispense His life into man so that man and God become a mingled and united entity.

This is the reason I was born, to build up this New Jerusalem for the enjoyment of man and the expression of God. This is called the "eternal purpose" of God in the New Testament.

I was walking around in daze before my inner eyes were opened by revelation to see New Jerusalem. I thought we were just here by some accident on a second rate planet, circling a second rate star which was eventually going to die out.

Modern thought and Darwinianism painted a bleak meaningless existence inspite of advancing technology. I know now that I was created to be a brother in life, nature, and expression with Jesus the Son of God.

Why are you here?


Myopic? I acknowledge both the good and the bad in the bible and it's my view that's myopic? Seems to me that it is YOUR view that is myopic.

Not so far, you haven't acknowledge anything beside hell and baby killing, that I can recall.

me:
I notice that you didn't say what the meaning of your life was.
Why is that?

you:
I'm an engineer Jaywill, not a philosopher. My life has meaning only to me and those that I love and provide for.

You've done already a good deal of hefty philosophizing I think about God, and the worthlessness of Him. You philosophized that it was useless to be thankful to any supposed God and that you have only your own hard work to thank for anything.

I think manifested your philosophy pretty strongly.


I live my life the same way you live your life. I do my best every single day to be as kind, compassionate and as honest as I can possibly be. I am judged by my family and by those I interact with on a daily basis. If I am also being judged by a supreme being, so be it, but i will not alter my behavior because that may be the case.

(Spelling Spelling! small i !) See I can notice errors too.

I have found that to alter behavior is one matter.

For a man to open his being and allow the Spirit of Christ to fill him so that he is tranformed is another matter. That is why Jesus spoke of a good tree bearing good fruit and a bad tree bearing bad fruit. The life one has spontenously produces the nature of that life.

The law of Moses was given to expose that man could not altar his behavior to be righteous according to God's standard of righteousness.

God's answer is regeneration www.regenerated.net - that is to dispense Christ into man. It is not behavior improvement but more like grafting a sick branch into a healthy tree. The life of the healthy tree flows into the branch and causes it to live well.

So when you imply that you are not going to grit your teeth and sweat and labor to alter your behavior, I agree with that 100%. The New Testament teaches that the need of man is to be born again with a new life in Christ to fill and saturate him.


Take your students over to the Creation Museum and introduce them to the solid science behind Young Earth Creationism. Don't forget to check your critical thinking skills at the door.

There you go! Great critical thinking skills displayed there. Assume that a group of rather vocal Young Earth Creationists must represent all Christians.

Can I do the same and suggest that you take your "students" somewhere to learn how to build faulty collapsing bridges?

Can I take a few lousy engineers and assume they represent the whole bunch of you all?

Double standard? You should have decided to be something else then when you found out that some engineers build structures wrong.

My reasons for believing in a more ancient earth are theological mostly and not due to dating methods. And you have no scientific fact which proves the falsity of this statement:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

As a matter of fact with all the talk about catastrophies in earth's history and the extinction of species, it seems that science is inching close to what Genesis tells me -

"And the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen 1:2 RcV) "became" in verse two. And a number of Hebrew scholars translate it that way.)

So if you need a few million years or a few billion, we can well see that in Genesis before verse two.

Of late I hear more about prehistoric killer gas, killer comets, killer asteroids, killer ice, killer volcanoes, etc.

Seems modern science theories are inching closer to what Genesis 1:2 discribes as the condition of the earth before it was prepared for man's existence.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by caldron68, posted 12-19-2008 5:46 PM caldron68 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2008 10:07 AM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 63 by caldron68, posted 12-20-2008 12:18 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 58 of 106 (491713)
12-20-2008 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by caldron68
12-18-2008 9:03 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
caldron69 writes:

How can you possibly enter into a loving relationship with God when you know that he ordered the murder of children and infants? And more than once, I might add.

Yep, this is a much much bigger problem than theists like to admit or make it out to be.

What i will say is not directed to you in particular, but to the whole auditorium as we kind of share the same interest - the desire to find out the truth about what we are and what this experience we collectively call life is.

I am not going to pretend that i know the answers and i will first make a disclaimer that i am a very down to Earth individual who used to be an atheist for more than 31 years. I am sane and I do not believe in fairies, murmaids, unicorns and similar fictional entities(yes, this last part gets a new meaning as of lately).

Here i would recommend to anyone to get familiar with the life and prophecies of a local clairvoyant, named Vanga(commonly referred to as "Baba Vanga" - in Bulgarian this means Granny Vanga). She had(while she was alive) the stunning ability to predict future events and contact the dead. (this is not one of those 99.99% cases of false fortune tellers). I have all 4 books about her and practically know most everything about her life and abilities. Those books i've read at least 4 times each to make sense of her comments of the nature of our existence, as some of the things she says don't make sense to the casual reader - like the claim that she's being visited by invisible entities(she's blind) who claimed that they could travel anywhere at any time, because time and space did not exist.
She is the most popular clairvoyant in whole of Russia. I have friends from Ukraine and Moscow(i speak Russian) and the whole of Russia knows about her(this is easily verifiable on the net, it would help if you speak Russian). I sometimes get the impression that she's as popular there as she was here. That holds particularly true after she predicted in 1982 that "Kursk keh potane i celia sviat shte go oplakva" which is a dialect in Bulgarian that means "Kursk will sink and the whole world will weep over it"(i have the book printed and published in 1986). At the time no one could figure out what this meant since Kursk city does not lie on any sea. It was not until 2000 that it was realised the Kursk submarine did sink; the weep part of the prediction was also true - this event was truly dramatic and emotional, particularly for us Bulgarians who share many similarities with Russians.

She had the amzing ability to know who was waiting outside her house(there have always been queues of people waiting) and selectively was inviting people who she found to be carrying worthy problems. She would describe the problem of the person and why that person was coming to visit her, before the person even opened his/her mouth. Hitler visited her in 1942 and left her house very angry and agitated. Since then, all of our presidents have sought her advice, including many foreign ones. She's being quoted in practically every language by the press the world over.

The local Christian church has labeled her "Devil's messenger" and refused to let her step into any chruch.
She says the dead show up before her and they talk to her and it's been confirmed that the dead are giving information to Vanga that she has no way of finding out for tens of thousands of people.

She says there is God but her predictions and the information she receives do not stem from contacts with god(she never said or implied she made such a contact) but from entities from another planet. Bear in mind that her intellectual level is low and sometimes how she interprets the information she receives might be wrong or too vague.

Don't take for granted all you read about her prophecies on the net. I've seen multiple predictions that are not hers, but are attributed to her by sensation seekers. The only authentic source is the books of her relatives about Vanga, she was illiterate and could neither read nor write. I have no idea if there are translations in English, I am only aware of Russian ones. If anyone is interested google her name, or buy the books on her(just bear in mind that there many fake predictions attributed to her on internet, that i've never seen in the books).

I know this sounds outrageous but before you wave this off as folly, give it a critical look, it's mind-boggling.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by caldron68, posted 12-18-2008 9:03 PM caldron68 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-20-2008 10:33 AM Agobot has responded
 Message 64 by Bailey, posted 12-20-2008 12:32 PM Agobot has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 59 of 106 (491715)
12-20-2008 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by jaywill
12-20-2008 8:22 AM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Jaywill writes:
There you go! Great critical thinking skills displayed there. Assume that a group of rather vocal Young Earth Creationists must represent all Christians.

Can I do the same and suggest that you take your "students" somewhere to learn how to build faulty collapsing bridges?

Can I take a few lousy engineers and assume they represent the whole bunch of you all?

Double standard? You should have decided to be something else then when you found out that some engineers build structures wrong.

My reasons for believing in a more ancient earth are theological mostly and not due to dating methods. And you have no scientific fact which proves the falsity of this statement:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

As a matter of fact with all the talk about catastrophies in earth's history and the extinction of species, it seems that science is inching close to what Genesis tells me -

"And the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Gen 1:2 RcV) "became" in verse two. And a number of Hebrew scholars translate it that way.)

So if you need a few million years or a few billion, we can well see that in Genesis before verse two.

Of late I hear more about prehistoric killer gas, killer comets, killer asteroids, killer ice, killer volcanoes, etc.

Seems modern science theories are inching closer to what Genesis 1:2 discribes as the condition of the earth before it was prepared for man's existence.

Edited by jaywill, 12-20-2008 07:25 AM: No reason given.

If it werent for others on the website watching and listening I would say dispense with the sparing with these hardline fellas and write a book, I would certainly but it. I am pretty good at it but I dont think I would want to meet you in a public debate, but then again I doubt there is much we would disagree on that mattered. Keep up the good work.

D Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2008 8:22 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 60 of 106 (491719)
12-20-2008 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Agobot
12-20-2008 9:56 AM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Agobot writes:
Yep, this is a much much bigger problem than theists like to admit or make it out to be.

No, not at all once it is put into perspective.

What i will say is not directed to you in particular, but to the whole auditorium as we kind of share the same interest - the desire to find out the truth about what we are and what this experience we collectively call life is.

Here i would recommend to anyone to get familiar with the life and prophecies of a local clairvoyant, named Vanga(commonly referred to as "Baba Vanga" - in Bulgarian this means Granny Vanga). She had(while she was alive) the stunning ability to predict future events and contact the dead. (this is not one of those 99.99% cases of false fortune tellers). I have all 4 books about her and practically know most everything about her life and abilities. Those books i've read at least 4 times each to make sense of her comments of the nature of our existence, as some of the things she says don't make sense to the casual reader - like the claim that she's being visited by invisible entities(she's blind) who claimed that they could travel anywhere at any time, because time and space did not exist.

Now this is where the greatest mystery lies about you fellas. You require the stricktest of evidence and nearly absolute proof of everything, (including the existence of God)but will nearly accept at the drop of a hat and a few books, that some women has some strage ability to predict who is at her door and belives aliens and dead people are talking to her. Amazing.

She says there is God but her predictions and the information she receives do not stem from contacts with god(she never said or implied she made such a contact) but from entities from another planet. Bear in mind that her intellectual level is low and sometimes how she interprets the information she receives might be wrong or too vague.

You did see the episode of the 'Twilight Zone', "to serve man" correct, be very careful of those sneaky aliens. I dont suppose she ever made an attempt at the lottery numbers or the horses,, coreect? Or perhaps she could tells us what is the fate of the planet. Or were her skills limited to knowing there were salesmen outside the door?

Don't take for granted all you read about her prophecies on the net. I've seen multiple predictions that are not hers, but are attributed to her by sensation seekers. The only authentic source is the books of her relatives about Vanga, she was illiterate and could neither read nor write. I have no idea if there are translations in English, I am only aware of Russian ones. If anyone is interested google her name, or buy the books on her(just bear in mind that there many fake predictions attributed to her on internet, that i've never seen in the books).

Again, simply amazing. I also have a psychic answering service on my phone, it says, "I know who you are and what you want, so if I am interested, I will have already called you back, have a nice day". Ha ha

I know this sounds outrageous but before you wave this off as folly, give it a critical look, it's mind-boggling.

Ok Ok, Ill take a look, but it better be worth my time, or Im blaming you, ha ha.

D Bertot

Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Agobot, posted 12-20-2008 9:56 AM Agobot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Agobot, posted 12-20-2008 11:03 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

    
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