A fatal logical flaw in creationism?

well,now that you asked,yes there is.He is real in my life and in the lives of many other people.Creation testifies that God lives,and no one can invent nature.Some try but they fail.Even today we know that clones still have to be created from the original,there is no way to invent life.In other words,no one can make a plant or a seed apart from a plant.Hybrids came into being with other plants that were already here.No one can invent life without life that was already here first.Life cannot just be invented on it's own by mens hands.

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Desdamona

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Life cannot just be invented on it's own by mens hands.

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But life can evolve in the hands of men. Does that make evolution true then?

Then you see something most of us do not see.
Dolly the sheep still came from sheep.No shock there,so what do you mean by evolve? Evolve means to me that life happened on it's own by chance not on purpose.Evolving is not something that just happens on purpose,thats where the idea comes from remember?

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Desdamona

Could someone please explain to desdamona one more time that she needs to provide evidence for her claims?Edited:Also, could someone please ask desdamona to tell us if she knows the mechanisms of evolution? She is making all these claims regarding evolution and I just want to know if she knows the first thing about the theory itself.[This message has been edited by Lam, 04-21-2004]

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The Laminator

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Then you see something most of us do not see.
Dolly the sheep still came from sheep.No shock there,so what do you mean by evolve? Evolve means to me that life happened on it's own by chance not on purpose.Evolving is not something that just happens on purpose,thats where the idea comes from remember?

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Evolution is about the diversification of life. Abiogenesis, a theory separate from evolution, is a theory about how life started. As an analogy, iron smelting is abiogenesis and making a car is evolution. It doesn't matter how the iron was mined or smelted, as long as it fits the requirements you can make a car out of it. The same thing for evolution. All evolution requires is an imperfect replicator. How that replicator came to be does not effect the mechanisms of evolution. Evolve means to change, not to come from nothing. The evolution of airplane design is different than the discovery of air flight.However, evolution is a blind algorithm. It plays by certain rules, but the outcome is defined by the rules, not by a preset purpose. Those rules include mutation, selection, and environment.

Then you believe that life was already here when things,creatures,ect... began to evolve,yet there is no evidence that anything ever evolved.There should be alot of evidence if it had,but there is none.The Piltdown man and many others were proven hoaxes,and big jokes,and they were invented by evolutionists.If life was already here when things began to evolve,where did it come from because we know tham man cannot invent life in a lab or any place else.Man can reproduce,but he cannot invent reproduction.satan has pulled one of the biggest jokes ever by trying to convince the world that he doesn't exist,yet anyone who has ever heard a demon scream or yell knows that satan does exist though one day he will come to his ruin.I believe God uses satan to weed out the evil from the world.satan gets his power from God,and God is allowing evil to destroy it'sself. Yes,there had to be a first,and God is the first.God is the Alpha and The Omega.Apart from God all we have left would be man trying to make himself God,and man trusting in man,but man makes many mistakes.we are all full of error,even though we don't want to be.We even hurt those we love most because of it.There is a first because man cannot prevent the out come of his/her own life.We try to make it where we can live longer yet it really isn't going to work.We fool ourselves if we believe there is not a first who is wiser and better than we are,and who wants us and cares for us.It is no secret that the last days would be full of deception,and people turning to myths and fables instead of sound truth.Granted,with religions groups every where and occults,and all sorts of different ways to believe it's no wonder there is so much confusion,and people have serious doubts,but creation tells us there is a God,there is a first,if we really do want to know.Our minds are powerful,and we want knowledge,and we don't want to be fooled,hurt,ect..but thats what will happen if we turn away from believing there is a first who loves us and put us here on purpose.

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Desdamona

That men created Gods (for comfort) is very real to me and to many scientists and people. The Hindus believes their Gods is as real as your One God. So how do you resolve this?When I ask for one good reason, I meant logical reason. But you only give me emotional reasons.

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Then you believe that life was already here when things,creatures,ect...

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Of course. Biological evolution requires the presence of life. This should be no more surprising than me saying that I need a deck of cards before I can play poker. Darwin wrote "The Origin of Species", not "The Origin of Life."

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began to evolve,yet there is no evidence that anything ever evolved.There should be alot of evidence if it had,but there is none.

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There are vasts amounts of evidence, none of which has falsified the theory of evolution. Just for a primer, go to the talkorigins.org 29+ evidences for Macroevolution. One of the major flaws in creationist logic is that they claim that there is no evidenciary support for evolution. By those who are educated, this is a flat out lie. For those who don't know any better, this is something that they shouldn't recite after being shown how much evidence for evolution there really is. My "favorite" line of evidence is ERV (endogenous retroviral insertions). These viral DNA sequences found within our ells are strong evidence for us sharing a common ancestor with chimps and gorillas. And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

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The Piltdown man and many others were proven hoaxes,and big jokes,and they were invented by evolutionists.

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They were found to be hoaxes BY evolutionists, not creationists. Science has and always will rid itself of hoaxes without the help of creationists. Also, you may not know but there at least a hundred ape-like hominid fossils that aren't hoaxes. Maybe you could make a comment about those instead of the hoaxes that never factored in to the construction of the theory of evolution.As a personal note, I am not here to move you away from Christianity. I am trying to show you how pseudoscientific theories, such as creationism, are not an effort to expand our knowledge. Instead, these theories look to support a religious dogma at the expense of ignoring falsifying evidence. If I said that the Earth was flat because Jesus loves me, would you accept that the world were flat? Science strives for an areligious, objective view of the natural world and leaves the spiritual world to religion/spirituality.[This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 04-21-2004]

O.K.,I see that this could be emotional to you.
I believe that the idea of evolution is a hoax because the public has been brainwashed into believing that it is supported by science.In most of the public school boards and courts considering creation verses evolution,the issue has always been presented as "Religion verses Science.They argue that creation should not be taught in public schools because it is religion,but that evolution can be taught because it is science.
The truth is,the idea of evolution is not scientific.It is important that we know what science is and are able to distinguish between science and what is falsely called science.Evolution too,is a religion.A typical definition of science is that it is a branch of study concerned with observation and classification of facts,especially with the establishment of verifiable general laws,cheifly by
induction and hypothesis. Webster defines science as "Systematized Knowledge derived from observation,study,and experimentation..." You can look at various dictionaries and get slightly different definitions,but the key words will be "Observation",Experimentation",Verifiable",testable",and repeatable". In other words,if it cannot be observed,repeated,verified,or subject to experimentation,then it is not scientific.Evolution has never been observed,repeated,verified,nor has an experiment ever been performed regarding it,thus evolution is not scientific.
God must exist.People have seen Jesus,they have observed his body on the cross,in the tomb and raised from the dead.Jesus was here because there are so many witnesses that saw him.Miracles did,do and still happen,I have witnessed miracles,Archaeology confirms that people in the bible did live and the towns and places did exists,and some still do.God speaks to people who seek him with their heart,and he makes himself real to them.The Holy Ghost testifies that the bible is true,many witnesses today know this,so it boils down to who are you going to believe,Religion,God,or Man.I'll take God every time,because he's the much better choice,he was and is first and he knows how better to care for me than I ever could.
The idea or religion of Evolution contradicts known scientific laws such as the laws of biogenesis,the law of kinds and the law of thermodynamics.These laws are indisputable.From this we know that it is a faith,a religion,and not a science.It helps to prove God is first,and that he still is even if the world can't handle it.

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Desdamona

State those Laws for us, please. I know the four laws of thermodynamics, but I'm not so familiar with those others.You're bluffing, Des, and you know it. You don't even know what you're copying.

First of all,the bible does not claim the world is flat.Isaiah 40:22 says the world is a circle.
So then,you and I both claim science,but evolution cannot!
Evolution is a religious system like any other,except it doesn't believe that God is God,it thinks man is god.
You need to be able to prove what you say in court because that is so ficticious and fake anyone who has ever studied the laws of science knows it.I would like to see this case brought to court one day.The court room and law still uses the bible to this very day.
America was founded on the christian morals of the bible and it's un-American to say it's not.If the world begins to accept the evolution religion as truth,America will lose her freedom and everything it stands for,because to claim the bible is not evidence of God,or that it's mans word not God's word shows that what your religion is all about is no God,except man.Many evolutionists believe they have morals,and that is great if they do,but to say there is no God when you are not omni-present makes someone look very silly to me.The bible is proving to be right all the time.In the last days people will turn away from the truth and would rather believe fables and stories they want to hear,because they don't have a love for the truth.The truth is too painful to look at for some individuals.
The truth is creation and evolution are what many would call religious views.The issue is not religion verses science,but religion verses religion.Any concept regarding origins is not scientific,in that origins were not and cannot be observed,repeated,or verified.Scientists can only deal with present evidence.The choice of which idea to accept becomes a matter of faith.To accept something without evidence requires faith.The Bible states,"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen....by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible." (Hebrews 11:1-3)
The christian believes that God created the universe,life and man,while the evolutionist believes that the universe,life and man somehow evolved without any supernatural direction;in essence:"Evolution cannot be proved or tested,it can only be believed."It is not very hard to believe in creation with all it's beauty and complexity of earth and universe,yet to believe that dead matter could create life and have absolutely no evidence requires faith of another order.Some even believe that a cosmic egg of energy exploded to form chemical elements,stars,galaxies,and finally people.Some even have faith to believe that life was planted here on earth by those unknown from outer space.Why they are still allowed to run free,I do not know?

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Desdamona

"circle (noun) - A closed plane curve such that all its points are equidistant from the center" (Webster's Unabridged) (emphasis added)
Plane means flat.

Guys, you know this one isn't worth the effort. There are no particular reasoning skills here and almost no reading skills.But, if you're having fun.... [This message has been edited by NosyNed, 04-21-2004]

I am learning as I said that I would,and I am starting with Science because I like Science.
The law of Biogenesis states that life can only come from other life.Life does not spring from non-living things.This is what we observe and what the bible teaches in Genesis 1,where various forms of life were created to reproduce.Perhaps the most difficult problem that evolutionists face is the question of how self replicating life systems could form from non-living,non-replicating systems. Some evolutionists propose that in the beginning small inorganic molecules such as water,methane,ammonia,and somehow by chance chemical reactions,formed amino acids.Theses amino acids supposedly combined to form proteins and then,eventually living cells.The idea that living creatures can be produced naturally,from non living substances,is called spontaneous generation.Never has then been observed,repeated or verified,and thus,this idea is not scientific.

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Desdamona

Don't tell me you just realized that.

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The Laminator

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