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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her? I don't see God getting upset if all honest recourse is taken by the human in question. A God of toughlove would only want people to have a communion with Him/Her only for their own good...not for Gods Ego. As you have inferred before, the people who have read the manual will be expected to conform to a stricter standard. Humans have reasoning, conscience, and the ability to be responsible for their lives. (its unknown what worms are capable of) So the question is: All things considered, do humans need a relationship with God in order to manifest their destiny?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her? The issue is not that God isso insecure as to need us to believe in her. The issue is that God knows that if we believe in the alternative(s) it will bode ill for us. A Father may not really care if their kid does not think of them as the greatest role model and Dad of the year, but that same Father would be legitimately concerned if their prodigal began to believe that the local drug dealer, fast talking used car salesman/employer or even the huckster preacher captured their sons interest and that the lad was being misled down primrose paths of doom. I'll state my belief again: God wants us to have a relationship with Him. He wants us to realize that we are not the captain of our ship nor the master of our soul. Further, there are many charlatans that would love to trick us into allowing them to control our destiny as well.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: How much relationship would I even want to have with a darn worm? But of course I am a selfish human, rather than an omnipotent altruistic God....who may well desire to commune with worms!
How much of a relationship can you have with a worm? Jar writes: Do you mean would I want the worm to be dependent on me? Perhaps only in that were I God, the worm would have a much better destiny by being in communion with the Creator of all that is seen and unseen rather than just being some little slithering critter breaking up clumps of dirt! Would you want the worm to realize that it lives only at your suffrage? You seem to always bring up the Bling Bling Pimp Daddy argument about a God who gets bent out of shape because we diss Him. I maintain that God is more than the local Don. God is sustenance itself. The whole concept of communion with a Creator is in my opinion a beneficial thing for any creature great or small.
Jar writes: And in that regard, I can see your point that if a creature decided not to have communion with God, it would not be right for God to get bent out of shape and banish that creature to eternal nothingness. But in the end, it can only be you that controls your destiny, there just aren't many other choices. You can control it yourself, turn it over to some other human or turn it over to fantasy. But it is still you that makes those decisions. If God offers us a decision, it only makes sense that He honor all possible choices that we then choose to make. In that regard, I can see an argument against the concept of Hell. On the other hand, if communion is the only true source of life, it would make sense for all creatures to freely choose that choice. Its like all the creatures in the desert choosing to drink water. Just because that is their only best option does not make it an unfair ultimatum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Very little if any. It is not a matter of what someone wants, as much as a matter of what is possible. How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?I can say last rites over him before I stick him on the end of a fish hook!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: I can totally agree on this one. Scripture supports it as well. So does The Westminster Confession: I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him, as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
GOD, if GOD exists, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen; GOD, if GOD actually exists and is the creator of this universe we inhabit, is so far different from a mere human that any relationship is impossible. Jar writes: So you are saying that we cannot have the same type of a communion/prayer relationship with God that Jesus had?
Jesus, during his lifetime here on earth, was man, not divine, not God, but man. As a man, Jesus was able to have relationship, communion, with mankind. Before Jesus birth, after the Ascension, such relationships were not and are not possible. Jar writes: I would say that Jesus taught us how to commune with God. He was God incarnate, which means that He was not God the Father but was fully and legally Gods representation among us "worms."
Jesus showed us what is possible. He taught us what the real capabilities of "just a man" can be.(...)It all comes down though to what WE do. Jar writes: But is it irrelevant to live for God? What did Paul mean when he said: Life is ours to live.NIV writes: Gal 2:19-21--I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. What did the authors of The Westminster Confession(1646) mean when they said: V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts. VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Jar writes: I agree with you in that I believe that We become the decisions that we make. I don't believe that any sort of evil spirit or presence can make me sin. Paul seemed to think that it was some sort of a spiritual struggle, though. We can struggle with our conscience, but it is OUR conscience, not some outside being.NIV writes: ...Rom 7:14-19--I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Jar writes: So what is it that we have? Are you saying that there is nothing special about accepting Jesus? I will agree with you that Christians are no better and at many times as carnal or worse than unbelievers. You and I examined a few websites of some of the ministers who attempt to sell salvation and who treat Christianity as a business and a way to earn a living. I was watching TBN last night at my friends house and we saw the obvious hypocrisy of many of the so-called snake oil salesmen on Paul Crouches stage. We jokingly agreed that it seemed to be one giant Christian infomercial! But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man. All that this shows me, however, is that humans have an intrinsically greedy nature and that the more that man attempts to put God in a box and/or glorify himself, the worse it appears and is.
Jar writes: OK. But what did Jesus mean when He said But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man.NIV writes: What did He mean with God? Matt 19:26-- "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Edited by Phat, : fixed a mistake Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : testing new quote in signature Edited by Phat, : spelling Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them. * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut! Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I said: But what did Jesus mean when He said
NIV writes: What did He mean with God? Matt 19:26-- "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." What about people who do not know God? Are all things possible for them as well? My other question is this: Lets say that every Christian at EvC is reading our little chat. they gave me a list of questions to ask you, so I will do so: 1) Why are some of us willfully ignorant? 2) How are we being dishonest with ourselves? 3) Do we worship or know the same God you do, in your opinion?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Hey Jar! I wanted to first ask you for your comments on my post that I made to Rrhain here.
We have agreed that humans are even farther below God (Creator of all that is seen and unseen, by agreed definition) as a garden worm would be below humans. Am I right so far? My argument is that even worms get their day in court...not so much for the purpose of judgment as for the opportunity to get to know The Judge and review their expectations as law abiding worms in the garden of life. The Judge is God. The Prosecutor is God. If Satan exists, he is a witness for the prosecution. The defense attorney is a chap named Jesse the worm. I hear he is quite good! The worms on trial are accused of willfully and knowingly breaking the laws of nature. My question, in light of my hypothetical courtroom scenario, iswhether the Judge will throw the case out of court or allow it to continue?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith and Knowledge.
IMB, Faith does not evolve. God is the object of my Faith. I did not simply make Him up, although it has been pointed out to me that I cannot prove this!
Jar writes: Reason should always trump blind faith. In fact, blind faith should just be thrown away. I agree with you when it has been pointed out that I should be able to support my faith and not simply declare that I am correct and that everyone else can go get saved, or whatever arrogant thing an exclusivist would say!
Jar writes:
Yet IF God foreknew the results and everyone got saved and made it into Heaven like that darn Parable Of The Workers! I will concede, however, that you clarified your position on this doctrine long ago when you settled it with Father Joe concerning the Warlord in China. Yes, he should have saved everyone!
If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.Phat writes: Yes, this makes sense. If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.Phat writes: God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not. Most Christians believe that although God has initiated the possibility of salvation for all, we must respond to the invitation. Contrary to that is the teaching of Universal Reconciliation which is a controversial doctrine, to say the least! (Translation: Phat has not yet studied it extensively! ) If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish. Jar,message 45 writes: OK, but keep in mind that I am testing my beliefs and attempting to articulate them as we speak. Not all of us have ready made Belief Statements such as you do! Sheesh!
If we are going to get anywhere you need to stop simply changing what you believe every other line. Jar,message 79 writes: The only point of interaction that we can have with God is at this present moment. It is irrelevant what God foreknows about our future decisions or lack of same. All that is relevant is the type of relationship that we have with God now.
Phat you keep saying that God has foreknowledge. If God is the Creator and God has foreknowledge and some people are damned, then God is evil.Jar,message 81 writes: OK, we have had this one in chat before! God is a much bigger concept than I used to believe when I was smaller. Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you? Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm? I always like to use the Sun-Light-Heat Analogy when talking with kids at the detention center. Here is a sample conversation between myself and an imaginary kid we shall call Jonny Dangerously.Phat: So, do you like to play sports? Jonny Yeah. I like Basketball. Phat: OK. Lets say that you are outside playing B-Ball, OK? Jonny *shrugs*...sure, ok. Phat OK. Now the reason that you came to talk with me was for prayer, right? Jonny Yes, Sir. I am going to court next week and I need you to pray that I will get out! Phat OK, Jonny, lemme ask you this: Where is God right now? Jonny Far? Real Far? (God is a belief among the kids that I do my lesson with, although I talk to all of the kids in the pod eventually. I am one of the few religious volunteers that the State of Colorado gives such high access to, since unlike many of the others, I don't try and preach to or convert everyone! )
Note: Some kids say that God is in Heaven. Others say they don't know. Still others say that He is everywhere..all around us. Still others say that He is in their hearts. I get all sorts of responses to this one! Phat OK, back to the B-Ball game. You are shooting some good shots and are leading the other team by 10 points. The girls wave to you from the stands. You are sweating profusely and take a time-out to go get a drink! Glancing up in the sky, you see that Sun. Did you know that the Sun is a little over 93 million miles from the earth?Jonny looks blankly.... Say that we could hypothetically build a road straight to the Sun. Say that you had a fast car and that you gunned it and drove at an average speed of 100 miles an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week towards that Sun! How long do you think it would take you to get there? Jonny A long time? Maybe like a year? Phat At a hundred miles an hour 24 hours a day, it would take you roughly 106 years to get there! Keep in mind, also, that the Sun is the nearest star. Light takes roughly 9 minutes to get from the Sun to Earth, so you can see that light is quite a bit faster than your Lamborghini! With me so far? Jonny uh huh...sure i'm listening...go ahead... Phat The reason that I am using this analogy is that I am attempting to break down the concept of The Faher/Son/Holy Spirit by equating it with the Sun, The Light, and The Heat.God is much bigger than we humans think He is. The next nearest star is roughly 7 light years away! (I explain to Jonny what a Light Year is.) There are roughly 100 billion stars in the galaxy, and scientists estimate that there may be a hundred billion galaxies! Jonny Wow! I then have Jonny read John 1:1. We talk about the light (spiritual light) and how it shines in the darkness of incomprehension. Sometimes we talk about why it is difficult for kids who never had Fathers to understand and/or accept God. Sometimes we don't even talk about God. I always pray with them, though. And they always remember me. Sometimes, Jar, I think that God meant for me to know you. What do you think?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: You say "God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not." However if God has foreknowledge and then creates critters that he knows will reject Her, and then in addition attaches the penalty of damnation, then that God can ONLY be described as evil. It might be something to fear but could never be considered something worthy of love, respect or obedience. Okay. First of all, what made you think that you could pick and choose which God to worship based on what you consider fair? (Remember the construct?) God is God no matter whether you refuse to worship Him based on your human logic or not. (I will agree with you, however, that God probably would not get too bent out of shape over your protest. I'm still having trouble coming to terms with a God who saves everyone yet judges us based on our behavior alone. I know that I have probably already failed the class with this God....so where is the hope there? Do you believe in the doctrine of Divine Grace or do you consider it a convenient copout?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Okay. For the sake of arguement, lets concede the point that Jesus while on earth was only human. He had no supernatural power of His own accord, and it was God working through Him that made His life so intriguing. If we are to go and do likewise, lets transport ourselves to a backyard BBQ or Low Country Boil. The purpose, according to Bobbleheads, is to always be a witness for Christ and to spread the message of His atonement and sacrifice for all of us since He loved us. You, on the other hand, say to throw the old concepts of Jesus away and to just do the best that you can, get along with everyone as best as you can, and do it for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. (Am I representing you correctly?) If the intention is to get to know GOD, then a backyard BBQ, a fish fry or Low Country Boil is the better venue. So what are the topics of conversation at this event? Are the men telling off color jokes? When the teen guys approach the men, is there talk of getting laid and becoming a man? Is there flirting going on between the sexes? To make my position clear, I do not agree that Christians should pretend to be something that they are not. We all are human. We are not a bunch of prissy puritanical hypocrites. (or at least, we shouldnt be! ) By the same token, however, I think that it is important to be moral and ethical examples for the next generation. If Dad wants to argue with Mom, do it in the other room! If the neighbor kid brags about getting laid, give him some wisdom as to the perils and pitfalls of anonymous and uncommitted sexual liasons...don't simply share with him stories of what a hellion you were!
jar writes: The point of the play was not scientific. It was relational. You would have had to have been there, jar. The point of any parable, story, or shared perspective on life is to teach and to build a relationship with the individual. IF God exists, God will use that communion to allow that individual to open up. And sorry, I can see no point to your play. If you are talking about football at a backyard Bar-B-Que, God may well use the same communion between you and the family down the street, but my point is that if you are getting drunk and swearing, the play will not convey the right message. I believe that as witnesses, God does not expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be honest and to always be prepared to share the hope that is in our hearts.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Honest? You need to be honest with yourself. But honest with yourself for YOU, not for God. And sure, share the hope that is in your heart, if necessary use words. We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some. A group of people were standing around a painting...a work of art that stood apart from the rest of the pictures in the gallery. The painting had quite a few nuances and a few features that appeared to have been placed entirely out of rational context---nonetheless they fit the overall painting like a hand fits a glove. The observers all began to comment on the painting, and some of them were considered experts at Art History and were familiar with other styles of Art and overall periods of artistic expression throughout history. Overall, however, the opinions of each individual about what the piece meant to them was relative...and entirely valid for the individual. We could argue that the interpretation of the art would always be relative in that no one opinion carried more weight than another....except for the opinion and explanation from the artist himself. Having created the picture from his mind and through his body, the artist alone knows the message that the art was meant to convey. People obviously do not need to have the same interpretation that the artist intended, but there is little debate over whose opinion carries the most weight. The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art. Its the same with God. The One who painted the picture, created the intelligence to even form the words of expression, and foreknew the character of every living thing and who made reality and awareness possible has the best opinion on the overall purpose and meaning of life itself. (Of course, we are free (by design) to disagree! BTW why is it that God is unknowable? Is it impossible for God to make Himself knowable to us?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: To start off you said, "We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some." If that is really in response to what I had posted earlier, it could be an addendum, "Preach the Gospel, if necessary use words or pictures." But words or pictures are still only means of last resort. The primary way to preach the Gospel is to do; not say, not sing, not testify, but do. Granted there are different interpretations among Christians on what it means to Preach The Gospel.If the Gospel means the good news that God once became a Man, then when you tell me to teach how to discriminate and evaluate rather than merely parroting the Bible seems like sound advice.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Well, Jar..I am in the process of reading Language In Thought And Action. So far, I have read the first chapter, and have highlighted a couple of points: To Wit:
Do the words we utter arise as a result of our thoughts, or are our thoughts determined by the linguistic systems we happen to have been taught? The vacuum tube and transistor have produced in the twentieth century a revolution in communication, a revolution perhaps more far-reaching in its effects than the invention of printing, which ushered in the Renaissance. I assume he means the microchip as well as the transistor! I am just getting started in this book, but what I have gleaned so far is that humans are unique apart from other animals in that Dogs, Cats, or chimpanzees do not, so far as we can tell, increase their wisdom, their information, or their control over their environment from one generation to the next. Humans do. Connecting with my pet topic of religion, lets take Jesus as an example and focus for my next question. Given that Jesus was in your opinion only human, did Jesus have to learn everything about his environment and culture by reading, testing, and deducing? (Like everyone else?) OR....does the following scripture have any merits and/or clues about His uniqueness?
NIV writes: So was he just a good student? Nothing more?
Mark 1:22-23-- The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. NIV writes: Matt 7:28-29-- When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. My point is that it appears from the text that Jesus may have had another source for his wisdom apart from the sources that most students have. Either that or he had really good teachers and/or a real desire to learn. I'll keep commenting on Language In Thought And Action as I read it, BTW. Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them. * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut! Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: The revolution in communication surely would include the microchip, (used in cellphones and computers) is all I am saying. Hayakawa wrote the book B.C. (Before Computers) I'm not sure what you mean by microchip.Anyway, I am at the point in the book where it talks of Maps and Territories, which has always been one of your pet quotes! The quote came from Alfred Korzybski who is apparently the inspiration for much of Hayakawas semantics. Hayakawa writes:
As an example, Hayakawa talks of how most of our knowledge comes to us only in words, which are reports based on other reports that contrast with direct experience. (Secondhand information, in other words.) (Citizens) need to be systematically aware of the powers and limitations of symbols, especially words,if they are to guard against being driven into complete bewilderment by the complexity of their semantic environment. The symbol-----|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing symbolized The map--------|-------IS NOT-------|---the territory The word-------|-------IS NOT-------|---the thing I guess what he is saying is that learning about Tokyo is not the same as visiting and experiencing Tokyo.So...do you believe that Jesus is a symbol of God? (If so, it would mean that Jesus is not God. (As in God The Son) Edited by Phat, : edit
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jar writes: Why? Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud. Many websites claim that Jesus was God..in a Trinitarian mindset.
here and here as well as shown in the answers to this Theological Test here...and my question is that why is this issue so controversial? I mean, why couldn't Jesus have been all God and still fully human otherwise? Why is this so contentious with you? Edited by Phat, : added
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