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Author | Topic: Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They were taught the Creation Ordinances, which were after all written down by Moses.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's Genesis 2:24, you can make your own copy.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sure they were taught it. The Books of Moses were read to the people, so they couldn't miss it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But again, she was sent back to be one of Abe's three wives.
Abraham had only Sarah at that point, there was no third wife, and Hagar was sent back to Sarah so there is no reason to suppose that she went back as Abraham's wife. A clue might be that she had no other children, only Ishmael.
That was also true for most of the Patriarch and for other characters like King David. I misrepresented nothing.God blessed Abe even though he was a polygamist. Yes, God blessed many sinners, but they were still sinners, blessed because of their faith in God. Solomon was the worst but God blessed him greatly too. Yet God didn't just overlook the sin. It was only after Solomon's reign that the consequence of his sin came as judgment against the nation.
Hagar left. God sent her back. It really is that simple. Hardly. You did misrepresent what I pointed out that you misrepresented. She didn't go back to "Abe" as you claimed, and even going back to Sarah probably did not mean she went back as his wife. You implied that Sarah mistreated her without cause when it was Hagar's disrespect of her that was the cause. And you said God commanded polygamy which is untrue.
Further, when a man bought a wife, whether it was the first wife or the thousandth wife, she left her family and went with him, just like the goats he bought, the camels he bought, the cattle he bought. They became one flesh. And the one flesh did not refer to procreation or having kids. Abe and Sara were husband and wife even though as you say, she was infertile. One flesh is ultimately expressed in children but it exists without children. And what's the point you are making about wives and cattle? Abraham bought no wives. Where is that in scripture? Hagar was his wife's maidservant and it was his wife who gave her to him in order to have a child.
God didn't seem to have any problem with polygamy. Nor other sins. The "problem" isn't seen until the judgment against them comes, down the road a way. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sara is never described as Abraham's property nor treated as if she were Abraham's property. He always treats her with respect as his wife.
And yes we don't know for sure whether Hagar went back as Abraham's wife but her not having more children is a good sign she may not have. She was in Sarah's hands, not Abraham's, as Abraham said. There was only the one reason for her to be his wife in the first place, to have the child she did have.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What contradiction? Abraham didn't choose Hagar, Sarah gave her to him. The chances are she didn't go back as his wife but scripture doesn't say. If she did it would have been a duty of Abraham's to be a husband to her, but clearly his allegiance was always to Sarah. I think the fact that she had no more children is a very good sign she only went back as Sarah's maid. What's your problem?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Where did you actually prove that the argument is not based on history? I don't recall you succeeding at that either, seems to me the evidence was about "same sex unions," which are not the problem, and proved nothing at all about official state-sanctioned marriage beyond suggesting that there might have been a scanty few of them somewhere or other sometime or other.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
However delivering Hagar into Sarai tender mercies was not treating her like a wife in any way. What's your problem? Where did I say she was treated like a wife? I thought my point was that by being returned to Sarai and not to Abram she was NOT treated as his wife. So we agree about that too don't we? AbE: With regard to Sarai's "tender mercies" by which you apparently mean to imply she would continue to mistreat her, there is no reason to think so. Hagar had had an encounter with God in the desert and no doubt came back meek and repentant. Sarah's reason for dealing severely with her before was that she had despised her for her infertility. If Hagar refrained from that behavior, there is every reason to suppose that Sarai resumed her earlier fair treatment of her as her maid. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well it was inevitable. Lots of Christians now facing abuse of all sorts including very likely jail time.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Right, and Civil Rights protestors were criminals put in jail too, and Christian pastors in Communist countries were made criminals and put in jail, beaten and murdered as well, lots of criminals in this world made criminals by evil laws over the centuries and subjected to abuse. It finally came to America, now we can suffer like our brothers and sisters in the rest of history and the world.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If they were they would have been kind to them and prayed for them.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Bigoted criminals are of course rightly subject to every kind of abuse, it's all a matter of what you call people isn't it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh I'm sure you're right, jar, it is indeed about how people behave. If you preach the Bible for instance when the law has made it a criminal offense to preach the Bible, you become a criminal as you say. If you sit at a lunch counter when the law has forbidden it you become a criminal for that behavior. If you will not disobey God when asked to do so, when the law says you must, you become a criminal. If you refuse to accept the doctrine of transubstantiation when the powers that be have criminalized that refusal, you indeed become a criminal for that behavior. I'm sure this list could be expanded greatly.
You are quite right, it is all about behavior.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Again you demonstrate the principle that naming is what it's all about. Call Christians oppressors, homophobics, haters or whatnot and you can jail us or whatever the law decrees. Redefine injustice to include calling sin sin. By this means you turn the Christian culture on its head and make us criminals. Enjoy your power, it won't last long, God won't ignore it forever.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No I got it right. You've simply renamed "criminal" and renamed "injustice."
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