Okay, Faith, there are two things that you have stated in this thread that I cannot let go...and for the sake of argument, I will agree with your idea of a 6,000 year old Earth for this discussion. Mainly for the history point.
1. Now the first point is when you stated this:
Faith writes:
Oddly enough, I don't recall using Biblical reasoning at all in this discussion. If I have perhaps you can point it out?
I then pointed out where you had stated that the Old Testament may have condoned polygamy, even endorsed, but the New Testament rescinded this approval,
I did NOT say that, Tempe, please go back and reread. I said that God did not approve of the polygamy that was practiced in the Old Testament, in other words it was sin, it was NOT condoned, it was NOT endorsed, so there was nothing to be rescinded in the New Testament, God's Creation Ordinance of one man and one woman becoming one flesh was simply emphasized.
thus marriage is defined as one man and one woman. You said that was not to prove your point, but because it shows how the views changed, or something along those lines, please let me know if I am wrong.
You are wrong. The ordinance of God did not change, but Jesus made it clear that polygamy in God's eyes is sin, as it was in the OT as well.
And again, I was answering a side issue here and not arguing my case against gay marriage which was not based on the Bible.
So, I thought I would bring to attention a second use of the Bible to defend your views used in this very thread as well. In fact, on the very same page in my setup of twenty messages a page where you said you never used the Bible in this thread.
Faith writes:
First of all I don't hate gay people, and second the New Testament also identifies homosexuality as sin, in more than one place. Along with heterosexual sin and many others.
OK, perhaps there you have found my using it as I had forgotten, but again I don't think so: again this was said in answer to something someone else raised about the Bible, confining the laws against homosexuality to the Old Testament, while my usual argument was not based on the Bible but on history. I don't care if I did use the Bible in my argument, it's just that I believed I didn't, and left it to you to show me if I did, but what you have shown me doesn't seem to be about my argument, merely an attempt to answer others' arguments.
Whether or not something is a sin should not define the legal status that the individuals who practice it are afforded. The damage done to other indivduals or other's property is what should be considered when legal consideration is given. Same Sex Marriage cannot be denied based upon the fact that homosexuality is a sin to the Christian Church.
I didn't claim it should be. Again, I was answering a specific question. But to answer your claim here, there is such a thing as general damage to the body politic or society as a whole by redefining something as basic and ancient as marriage to accommodate something that has been regarded in all times and places as a sexual aberration.
So, two places where your arguments against same sex marriage required your use of the Bible. It may not have been your main argument, but your secondary arguments used to prop up the original argument are certainly a factor on whether or not your opinion stems from religion.
Sigh. But I did not use them as props in any sense whatever, I was merely answering specific arguments of others. THEY brought up the religious factor, I didn't.
AGAIN, not that it matters except as a point of FACT.
However, you want to claim you have History on your side! Well, shoot....maybe you do, I mean I can think of a lot of cultures where only one man and one woman were married...I mean, especially after Jesus talked about it. Wait, using a 6,000 year old Earth, Jesus only talked about it 2,000 years ago. Plus worldwide, I keep reading that while still legal in many regions of the World, polygamy was only banned in some countries as recent as the 1900's. So we have the Old Testament giving polygamy the go ahead for most of the first 4,000 years...Gotta build that tribe size.
In the Bible it was clearly sin and NOT condoned by the Bible for that reason. And as far as history goes just how common has polygamy been anyway?
Then, we have other cultures around the world who currently still practice polygamy and have for a long time, so we can say basically 6,000 years of history for them.
Now some banned it very recently, I'll give you benefit of the doubt and place the average at 1100 CE. How does that sounds...it even accounts for Judaisms ban on polygamy in 1000 CE.
So, we have 4,000 years from Christianity, 6,000 years from a far larger number of countries, including most Islamic countries, and we have 4,900 years from other countries that banned it throughout History. Last I heard, the more amount of time spent in one system would mean it is the most common form of marriage in History, so your argument fails to meet the demand for evidence. Marriage should include Polygamy if you are only making a Historical argument.
Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to prove. What is your point? Concerning history ALL I believe I have claimed is that homosexuality has in all times and places been regarded as an aberration, far from giving it the legitimacy of marriage. I don't recall saying anything about polygamy in history and what would be your point about that? Polygamy is heterosexual, no?
Plus, your beloved Martin Luther said that according to the Sola Scriptura there is no reason he cannot join a man and more than one wife in marriage.
I would have to investigate that further because the New Testament is very clear that monogamy is God's plan, making it very odd if Luther said otherwise.
So, could you again tell me how your ideas are based on the commonly held traditional view of marriage throughout History and not based upon the Christian defined definition that at most has a history of around 2,500 years as being the only way to define marriage (and that is generous of me). Last I learned 3,500 is bigger than 2,500.
Again, first, homosexuality is the topic, not polygamy, and my claim still holds that across all cultures through all time homosexuality has been treated as an aberration; and second, it is not at all clear just how common polygamy has been anyway, but why should it matter if it's common since I'd expect God's laws to be violated by fallen humanity. And there I AM arguing from the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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