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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
Nij
Member (Idle past 3116 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 16 of 274 (585846)
10-10-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Mark
Permission to buy and sell is not equivalent to being actually able to buy and sell, nor is permission equivalent to having something to buy and sell with.

A firearm's license does not mean I can wander into any gunshop and take whichever pick my fancy.
Being of legal age does not mean I may walk into any liquor store to take my favoured bottle of spirits from the shelf whenever I please, nor collect a whore from the corner, nor pick up that pouch of quality tobacco for my pipe.

I am certainly permitted to buy these things. But I must use actual money to do that buying.
The mark is not a monetary system at all. It is only one of permission.

General sidenote: and a frickin' weird permission at that since anybody without the mark is dead anyway -- as was quoted, anybody not worshipping the Beast is killed off. It makes little sense to provide a permission to everybody who could possibly use it while removing anybody that would not use it from being able to use it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 274 (585847)
10-10-2010 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


jar writes:

First, everybody gets the same number and the number does NOT identify the individual but rather "The Beast".

Wouldn't an implant contain both types of ID? For example an implant might include biometric and financial data for the individual as well as permission information from an authorizing agent. The data might be encrypted using a public/private key system that further verified and identified an authorizing agent.

quote:
Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

If the mark really were of the beast, Christians would avoid a Faustian deal with the devil and would not accept the mark even though doing avoiding it will make their life uncomfortable.

Buzsaw's interpretation seems quite a stretch. I don't see how a single global currency would be thought of as a solution to any of the current financial problems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 10-10-2010 9:08 AM NoNukes has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4395
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 18 of 274 (585850)
10-10-2010 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Mark
If you have the mark, name, or number you will be able to buy or sell

My god! It's VISA!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 19 of 274 (585862)
10-10-2010 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
10-10-2010 12:40 AM


Re: Mark
i think this is because in aincent times, people where branded slaves got brands in almost any culture, in some cultures they also branded thifs...., the writer used this and embelished it.

if you dont read it litilary you alredy have a number, your social security number, your tax number your account number ..... it is kinda hard to legaly buy and sell whit out them.


This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 20 of 274 (585871)
10-10-2010 8:11 AM


Debate Not Commentary
I'm not sure why some members feel the need to comment on the viability of a topic instead of actually debating.

If one feels the topic is nonsense, then don't participate.

A debate means one picks a side to present and support.

Spectators, please refrain from posting commentaries that do not move the discussion forward.

Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.

Thank you
AdminPD ***


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15318
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 21 of 274 (585876)
10-10-2010 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


A more plausible explanation ?
[URL=www.archaeologydaily.com/news/201006124299/Mithraic-Mysteries-and-the-Cult-of-Empire.html] has a couple of points that lead in the direction of a more plausible interpretation involving the worship or Mithras.


It appears, from the testimony of Tertullian, that initiates underwent various purification ceremonies, swore oaths of secrecy, and received brands on the hands or forehead betokening their membership in the order.

A brand on hand or forehead is certainly a better fit for the "Mark of the Beast" than anything proposed by those taking a futurist interpretation.

But there is more...


One of the accomplishments of Rome's evilest emperor was to bring the Armenian king Tiridates to Rome for his coronation. As Tiridates prostrated himself before the Roman emperor, he informed Nero that he would worship him as he worshipped the great god Mithra

Nero is frequently considered a likely candidate for the "Beast". Could it simply be a prediction that the Imperial cult, under Nero would copy a feature of Mithras worship ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 274 (585880)
10-10-2010 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
10-09-2010 11:32 PM


Re: Mark
Thank you for explaining that a Mark that only identifies the name or number of the Beast is a monetary system.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 11:32 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 23 of 274 (585882)
10-10-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
10-10-2010 1:12 AM


an "I ♥ The Beast" stamp"
Wouldn't an implant contain both types of ID? For example an implant might include biometric and financial data for the individual as well as permission information from an authorizing agent. The data might be encrypted using a public/private key system that further verified and identified an authorizing agent.

Except the story tells us what data is involved. no biometrics, no financial data, no encryption, just the name or number of the Second Beast.

If the mark really were of the beast, Christians would avoid a Faustian deal with the devil and would not accept the mark even though doing avoiding it will make their life uncomfortable.

Buzsaw's interpretation seems quite a stretch. I don't see how a single global currency would be thought of as a solution to any of the current financial problems.

Could be, except for one thing. Nothing in the passage says anything about Christians not getting the Mark. Earlier it says that the folk that won't worship the Beast get killed. But it does not identify them as Christians and all them got killed anyway so they are out of the story.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 1:12 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 10-10-2010 2:41 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 24 of 274 (585885)
10-10-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
10-10-2010 8:33 AM


Re: A more plausible explanation ?
Absolutely. And Rome under Claudius or Nero are what most of the story seems to point towards.

The main characters in the early creation of Christianity were likely born during the reign of Tiberius. But the period right after Jesus death, the formative period for early Christianity, was under Caligula, Claudius (who conquered Judaea) and finally Nero.

It would not be surprising then to see Rome as a succession of Beasts.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 274 (585891)
10-10-2010 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
10-09-2010 10:30 PM


Re: Mark
ICant writes:

jar writes:


Nope. In fact it says that everyone gets the "Mark", not that everyone but Christians get the "Mark'.

If everybody has the mark why is the penalty for not having the mark not being able to buy or sell?

Good point, brother. There are corroborating Revelation scriptures which alude to the fact that Christians should refuse to take the mark.
Revelation 14:9-13; ASV:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 16:2And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

ICant writes:

jar writes:


no mention of a global monetary system

I don't know if there will be a global monetary system but I do know that everybody in the world will receive the mark, name, or number of the beast or they won't be able to buy or sell.

Every tribe, tongue and nation and the terms buying and selling clearly implies a global monetary system.

ICant writes:

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We are also told that every person that does not worship the image of the beast will be killed.

Again, right on; clearly global government. This same 10 horned beast global gubm't is alluded to in the OT. (Daniel 7) and in Revelation, chapter 17 as well, all implying a global regime.

Jar and other skeptics choose to disregard the fact that the powers that be in the nations today are pressing toward global government. Islam also aspires to become the theocracy which will wield the power to force worship on all nations enforce by threat of death (likely beheading as per Revelation 20:4, cited above.) Beheading is the likely and traditional Islamic method of execution.

This end time global rise and rapid expansion of Islamic aggression is apocalyptic, as prophesied in both OT and NT.

ICant writes:

jar writes:


So is there any support for the claim that Revelations 13 contains ANY prophecy related to some future monetary system?

It seems that there is a system that to buy or sell you have to have a mark, name, or number in your hand or your forehead.

I am not sure but I think that would qualify as a monetary system.

No doubt about it. It's not so future. It's obviously emerging. Secularistic skeptics who avoid any acountability of a higher power have a vested interest in denying anything alluding to a higher power.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 10-09-2010 10:30 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 274 (585894)
10-10-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
10-10-2010 8:33 AM


Corroborated End Time Events
PaulK writes:

A brand on hand or forehead is certainly a better fit for the "Mark of the Beast" than anything proposed by those taking a futurist interpretation.

Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny computer chip inplants. This is the obvious likly methodology of how it emerges into fulfillment.

There's loads of corroborating prophecies, either fulfilled or emerging into fulfillment, in both OT and NT, all corroborating a Biblically prophesied end time apocalypse. This prophecy is just one of the many.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 8:33 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2010 9:55 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15318
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 27 of 274 (585897)
10-10-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Corroborated End Time Events
quote:

Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny computer chip inplants. This is the obvious likly methodology of how it emerges into fulfillment.

You seem to confuse "corroboration" with "contradiction". From your comment it seems clear that even you recognise that the Bible does NOT accurately describe any system that might be plausibly created in the forseeable future. The Bible talks of readable marks on hand and forehead, not implants that cannot even be seen.

quote:

There's loads of corroborating prophecies, either fulfilled or emerging into fulfillment, in both OT and NT, all corroborating a Biblically prophesied end time apocalypse. This prophecy is just one of the many.

By which you mean that your twisted misrepresentations of the Bible match your twisted fantasies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:46 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 3142 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 28 of 274 (585907)
10-10-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Mark
quote:

Buz
skeptics choose to disregard the fact that the powers that be in the nations today are pressing toward global government. Islam also aspires to become the theocracy which will wield the power to force worship on all nations enforce by threat of death (likely beheading as per Revelation 20:4, cited above.) Beheading is the likely and traditional Islamic method of execution"

When Arabs had total power(from 638 AD on) over endless lands with huge Christian (as well as Jewish) populations, the Christians werent forced into any type of conversion.

But the Roman Empire(*post* Constantine "conversion) killed endless Christians and the severe persecution continued under the Constantinople-based East Roman/Greek Orthadox/ Byzantine empire till Christians were given complete freedom of worship in 638 AD by Arab Muslims.

If there was complete tolerance of Christians in an age of intolerance (the 7th century AD through the 15th AD wasnt exactly an age of enlightenment), then I doubt Islam(which is followed by only 20% of the world and will hardly ever be much more) will somehow become some anti-Christian faith (the Koran calls Christians and Jews "people of the book" and forbids forced-conversion of the followers).

Christians have had freedom of worship since the rise of Islam (outside of "Christian" Europe anyway) and all modern global trends indicate a future that only progresses toward ever more freedom of conscience the world over(despite the worlds pockets of intolerance that humans have generally been known for putting their fellow humans through).

The very "evils" of creeping liberalism that some fundamentalists rant and rave against are the very proof that the 21st century is an awful fit for predictions that Buz seems to want to see. (one cant deny that Islamic lands are somewhat backwards in overall human-rights though, but even this small fraction of all lands is seeing inching progress ON TOP OF its pre-existing tolerance of Christians)

Im sure Buz will have a few horror stories from Afghanistan or some other small country to overlook the very clear global trend and thus sidestep the fact that his prophetic scenarios (which twist the Bible btw) are completely out of sync with any 21st (or 22nd) century world we live in.

Im sure he will ignore many more contradictions as well.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17141
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 29 of 274 (585909)
10-10-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:36 AM


Re: Mark
quoting the Revelation, Buzsaw writes:

"If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb...."


So God will torture those who do have the mark. It's hard to tell one Beast from the other without a program.

Buzsaw writes:

Every tribe, tongue and nation and the terms buying and selling clearly implies a global monetary system.


By that standard, we've had a "global monetary system" for centuries: gold.


"It appears that many of you turn to Hebrew to escape the English...." -- Joseppi
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:36 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31177
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 30 of 274 (585912)
10-10-2010 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
10-10-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Corroborated End Time Events[qs]Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny com
Marks and numbers are being implanted in tiny computer chip inplants. This is the obvious likly methodology of how it emerges into fulfillment.

But that is not what the Bible says Buz. I even posted the passage in the OP.

Have you ever read the Bible Buz?

The MARK identifies the Beast. It is the same MARK on every person. Please explain how that is used as a monetary system?

In case you forgot, here was your assertion...

Buz writes:

Biblically/prophetically, this is on tract, corroborating other end time prophecies. Why? Because it is prophesied in the book of Revelation, chapter 13 that all nations, tribes and tongues will, in the apocalyptic end times be required to buy or sell via marks and numbers implanted in the right hand or forehead.

I see this as relevant to what's going on. All global currencies will fail, necessitating a global monetary system in which all money is globally regulated and secured by a global government so as to be totally safe from theft and/or inflation. Christians are forbidden to receive this mark; thus the great tribulation and global persecution of Christians (also prophesied by Jesus and the apostles).

and here is what the passage you referenced actually says...

quote:
16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.


The MARK is the Name or Number of the beast. It does not identify the individual, a transaction, a currency, a value, an item, the amount, tag, tax or title.

How is that a monetary system?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2010 9:46 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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