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Author Topic:   Immigrants good for me and you? Bad? How to make a good answer that is accurate?
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 151 of 353 (838144)
08-14-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Taq
08-14-2018 1:30 PM


Re: Immigration is OK IF respect is given to those born here.
Taq writes:

I am all for pointing out the hypocrisy of immigrants who are against immigration.


My father was in favour of interning the Japanese during WWII. Ironically, his father was born in Germany.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Taq, posted 08-14-2018 1:30 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 152 of 353 (838235)
08-16-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
08-13-2018 8:52 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
No, roads and bridges are public works that benefit all of us collectively. Medicare is a complicated form of socialism that selectively benefits individuals.

Go back and look at your claim Faith, which was that for even for things that benefit us collectively, there can be socialism which transfers wealth from rich to poor. How is insurance for all different from roads for all? You are not even making sense. Individuals drive on highways. Insurance is a way to collect risks into a common pool. How is giving tax benefits to company owners not socialism even if the transfer is from the public to individuals?

You have not even tried to make a distinction.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 08-13-2018 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 10:33 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 353 (838262)
08-17-2018 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by NoNukes
08-16-2018 2:18 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Public works seems to me to be clearly distinguishable from socialism: they don't benefit individuals selectively. Even the legless have to have reliable transportation. We all need the police and the paramedics to have easy access to us and so on and so forth.

But I certainly haven't denied that we already have many forms of socialism, I might even support some of it, I just don't want any more thank you very much and would like to see reasonable methods for reducing what we've got.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 08-16-2018 2:18 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Taq, posted 08-17-2018 4:04 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 155 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-17-2018 5:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7999
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 154 of 353 (838273)
08-17-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
08-17-2018 10:33 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Faith writes:

Public works seems to me to be clearly distinguishable from socialism: they don't benefit individuals selectively.

Nowhere in the definition of socialism does it say that programs must benefit some groups over others.

But I certainly haven't denied that we already have many forms of socialism, I might even support some of it, I just don't want any more thank you very much and would like to see reasonable methods for reducing what we've got.

Do you have a reason for not supporting universal single payer health insurance that is paid for in part by tax money?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 10:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12787
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 155 of 353 (838274)
08-17-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
08-17-2018 10:33 AM


Socialism and Immigration
Faith writes:

I certainly haven't denied that we already have many forms of socialism, I might even support some of it, I just don't want any more thank you very much and would like to see reasonable methods for reducing what we've got.


OK what about Social Security? You and I both likely will depend on what we receive for the rest of our lives. Should it be changed? Reduced? Who will pay for our future benefits?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 08-17-2018 10:33 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 156 of 353 (838286)
08-18-2018 9:55 AM


Paul Krugman on Danish "socialism"
Seeing how people have been arguing over what socialism is and whether it's good or bad, I thought Paul Krugman's column yesterday, discussing social democracy in Denmark, would be relevant.

Something Not Rotten in Denmark

A recent Gallup poll found that majorities both of young voters and of self-identified Democrats prefer socialism to capitalism. But this doesn’t mean that tens of millions of Americans want the government to seize the economy’s commanding heights. It just means that many people, told that wanting America to be a bit more like Denmark is socialist, end up believing that socialism isn’t so bad, after all.

Edited by Chiroptera, : What the hell was I writing?


Oh, God! Pride of Man, broken in the dust again! -- Quicksilver Messenger Service

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Taq, posted 08-22-2018 4:05 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7999
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(5)
Message 157 of 353 (838491)
08-22-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Chiroptera
08-18-2018 9:55 AM


Re: Paul Krugman on Danish "socialism"
Chiroptera writes:

Seeing how people have been arguing over what socialism is and whether it's good or bad, I thought Paul Krugman's column yesterday, discussing social democracy in Denmark, would be relevant.

There is no country with pure capitalism, pure socialism, or pure communism. All countries are a mix of different economic models.

Experience has taught us that capitalism works great for some markets, while it works horribly for others. We have also found that unregulated capitalism really doesn't work. Therefore, when you have markets where demand is extremely high then you may want to lean towards socialism. Health care is a perfect example because it is a product that you literally can not live without. A health care market based on profit is going to increase prices to maximize profits which will necessarily make health care too expensive for a lot of people. There is no single country with a for profit health care system that has less expensive health care than the average socialist health care program.

The myth that needs to go away is the idea that it is an either/or choice. Guess what? You can have both capitalism and socialism, and adjust that mix so that it benefits the citizens that are in that economy.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Chiroptera, posted 08-18-2018 9:55 AM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5800
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 158 of 353 (838583)
08-24-2018 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
08-14-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Let me put it this way: I may decide I support some socialistic programs up to a point but I haven't worked it out yet, and the distinctions I'm making between socialism and public works and other necessary functions of government for the nation as a whole, still apply, and I still say we don't need any more socialists.

There is no distinction between Socialism and Public Works, because Public Works are run under a Socialist methodology. I think what you mean to say is that Socialism has its role in limited uses, such as public works programs, but is not advisable on a grand scale. I would agree. And I think most Socialists would actually agree. I mean, what is running Sweden's economy? It aren't the Socialist programs which, by the design of it, consumes wealth and cannot create wealth. It's private companies like IKEA, Skype, Volvo, Ericsson, Saab, etc that fund their social programs.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 08-14-2018 12:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-24-2018 12:11 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 167 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-25-2018 7:57 PM Hyroglyphx has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 353 (838605)
08-24-2018 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Hyroglyphx
08-24-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
No. Public wqrks is a function of every responsible government, it is not socialism. No. Public works is for the nation itself, socialism takes from some to give to others.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-24-2018 12:16 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 08-24-2018 12:20 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 161 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 1:56 PM Faith has responded
 Message 270 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-30-2018 12:56 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 160 of 353 (838609)
08-24-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
08-24-2018 12:11 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Faith writes:

Public wqrks is a function of every responsible government, it is not socialism.


Socialism is a function of every responsible government. Arguably, all functions of a responsible government are socialism.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-24-2018 12:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 403
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 161 of 353 (838656)
08-25-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
08-24-2018 12:11 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Public works is for the nation itself, socialism takes from some to give to others.

You mean like the way money for highways and schools is taken from everyone and given to people with cars and kids?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Faith, posted 08-24-2018 12:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 2:25 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 353 (838660)
08-25-2018 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Capt Stormfield
08-25-2018 1:56 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Oh dfon't be silly. Everybody needs roads. People who walk need roads. And people who walk ride in public transportation and cars and everything else and are also benefited by roads. EVERYBODY is benefited one way or another by public works.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 1:56 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by frako, posted 08-25-2018 2:29 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 164 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 3:09 PM Faith has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 163 of 353 (838662)
08-25-2018 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
08-25-2018 2:25 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
Everybody needs helthcare, everybody needs food. Why not make a grate public work and provide food and healthcare to every american.

You know make doctors like the american milirtary swarming in to unhealthy places giving everyone dental care and a checkup, and giant state farms that provide food for everybody for free.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 2:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 403
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 164 of 353 (838665)
08-25-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
08-25-2018 2:25 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
EVERYBODY is benefited one way or another by public works.

Ah, I see. You use the phrase "one way or another" to pretend that the socialist programs you like are different and should be called "public works". On the other hand you define the benefits of the socialist programs you don't like as benefiting only "others", who somehow don't don't fall under the rubric of "one way or another".

Did you miss the part where socialists use precisely the same "one way or another" reasoning to support their "no man is an island" view of how societies ought to be organized?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 2:25 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 08-25-2018 3:38 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 353 (838667)
08-25-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Capt Stormfield
08-25-2018 3:09 PM


Re: Conservative Cal Thomas (on a conservative site townhall.com) said this:
I'm sure if you tried REALLY REALLY hard you could see the logical difference between public works and socialism, but perhaps I'll come back and help you out later.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 3:09 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Capt Stormfield, posted 08-25-2018 4:26 PM Faith has responded

    
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