Dear fellow christian, judge not lest you be judged

Hi, riVeRraT. Unfortunately, we already know about Christ; we just don't believe. And if religions like Christianity weren't so wirespread - I.e., if there were, say, just one person who was Christian, they'd be treated as if they were crazy."So, you're telling me that there was a person of a middle eastern tribal people who died, but then came back from the dead, and now lives in a different kingdom which we can go to when we die? And if we pray over some crackers and wine, we can eat his body and drink his blood?"It would seem lunacy. And yet, because it is so widespread, it is treated as if it is not only normal, but something that it's offensive to point out how it would look if it were just a single case.Millions and millions of people believe in Islam. Millions and millions are Hindus. Millions and millions are shintos, buddhists, and all sorts of other religions. Is the fact that it is believed en-masse - despite different beliefs across the globe - that means that we should treat it as normal instead of how we'd treat it if it were just one case?It is things like this that make the concept of religion so pointless to atheists, and makes it frustrating to hear Christians try and convert them. Have you ever known a schizophrenic? Have you talked to them, and had them try and convince you that their delusions are real? If you've had that experience, you'll know what it's like for an atheist every time a Christian tries to conver them.Even if we wanted to believe that it was true - sure, it would be *great* to believe that we'll never die, and we've got an invisible friend up in the sky, and the world has meaning, etc, etc - you can't just pick and choose what you believe (surely you, as a Christian, know that - could you make yourself *not* believe in God if you wanted to?). It is why I never try and convert people, unless they're trying to convert me - if provides them reassurance and comfort in life, just as the delusions of schizophrenics are their way of escaping reality.(p.s. - I hope the analogies to delusions don't offend you; I'm just trying to help you see it from our perspective).

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

> Why is it the world wide flood never happened exactly?This isn't really the thread for this, so I'll not go into too much of the evidence (which would take pages), and just mention the history.When geology first started being established in Europe, a global worldwide flood was the de facto theory. In fact, there weren't really any other theories out there. However, as time went on, there started being problems discovered - ironically, miners and later railroad engineers helped contribute to this dramatically. As they mapped layers of rock that they would need to cut through, they found that no matter where in the world you were, you would find the same sort of fossils in a given layer of rock. They weren't sorted with respect to any discernable characteristic, and the deeper you went, the more different they looked from modern creatures. The layers were folded, and contained dramatically different kinds of minerals between each, alternating thousands apon thousands of times.This posed a huge problem for archaeologists. So, they gave up the global flood theory, right? Nope! The were so stuck on the notion, wanting the Bible to be correct on this issue, that they came up with a "multiple floods" theory - that God created creatures, then flooded them away, then created more creatures somewhat different, then flooded them, etc, on and on, until modern creatures. However, every few years, they had to add in a new "creation" and a new "flood" when it no longer fit the evidence. Eventually, they were finally forced to toss the "flood" notion all together - it just didn't fit.If you read the works of early geologists, they lament their inability to match with the bible. Many of them quite clearly had their spiritual beliefs tried by what they found. These weren't some band of atheists - for the most part, they were Christians, and bible literalists at that. But they were simply unable to match up their findings in the world with what the bible said. Each new piece of evidence from a new location drove a nail into the flood theory.Since, there have been far, far more lines of evidence on this subject. But, I'm not going to get into that now - if you want to discuss it more, revive one of the old flood threads.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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This is the most ludicris statement I have heard about Christianity on this forum to date.

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So, if I told you:"There was a person who lived in Sri Lanka who was eaten alive by a tiger, but reappeared a day later, and told everyone he now lives as an invisible spirit who will watch over you all the time. If we invoke his name, we can turn water into his blood, which we drink so that we may join him as spirits as well."What would you think? You'd either think I was crazy, or had been brainwashed to be part of a cult, wouldn't you? And yet, all I did was change around locations and actions to the generalized Christ story.

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Thats not a good way of putting it, but yes. It was witnessed by enough people and had such a large affect, that it still stands today.

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Actually, even according to Christian doctrine, the people of Greece and Asia Minor (who led to the conversion of Europe and Western Asia, and through them, later North and South America), were converted from Paul, who himself never witnessed the events of the Bible. In Israel itself, the most noteworthy thing about Jesus at the time was how *little* impact he had.

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Millions of people need to find out about Christ.

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And the Muslims think that millions of people need to find out about Mohammed. And Hindus think that millions of people need to find out about reincarnation. And Shintos think that millions of people need to find out about the spirits of nature, and Buddhists think that millions of people need to learn about Buddha's teachings. Just because *you* think that millions of people need to find out about Christ doesn't make *their* feelings any less dramatic. They are truly as convinced that what they know is the truth as you are (if you doubt me, let me redirect you to some Muslims' blogs )

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Christ came to change all those religions, and to die for all those peoples sins. This is happening on a regular basis in other coutries. Soon everyone on earth will have heard about Christ. People are converting by the thousands, some of my friends are over there experiencing it first hand.

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Actually, Muslims use almost this exact same statement. Islam is the world's fastest growing religion, you know; Christianity's share of the world's population is declining.

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Many miracles are being performed, things we don't get as much as here, because of our knowledge of everything hinders us from accepting God.

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Yes, because God keeps refusing to show up in testable circumstances. Every single measurement that every single scientist makes in every single lab every single day follows orderly laws, without "miracles" occuring. Sure, you could always hide God in the gaps and say that he refuses to show himself where it would prove his existance. But that's a pretty cheap tactic if you choose to take it.

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Maybe its some of your mis-conceptions.

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Liiiiike....?

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Have you ever known a schizophrenic? Have you talked to them, and had them try and convince you that their delusions are real? If you've had that experience, you'll know what it's like for an atheist every time a Christian tries to conver them.

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Now we are schizophrenic?

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It was an honest question. Have you? Another similar case, I'd imagine (although I've never had this experience personally) would be to talk to a cult member, and have them try to convert you to a bizarre cult. I'm trying to make it so that you'll understand what it's like for an atheist when you try and convert them, or even say things about how you hope they'll come to Christ eventually.And I understand what it's like from the other perspective. To Christians, it's like watching a person in a burning building, and shouting to them "FIRE! Get out!", and the person just looks at you and says "There's no fire, quit bothering me." However, I want you to see it from an atheist's perspective. [quote]

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surely you, as a Christian, know that - could you make yourself *not* believe in God if you wanted to?

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You can fill yourself with doubt, its too easy here. This way you can live your life the way you want to, and become your own god. It would be to me takling the easy way out, instead of trying to be Christ like. It's much harder to forgive all people all the time, and give to someone who wants to take from you, and give up a lot if not all of your material possessions for Christ. I mean who in their right mind would want to do that?

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That was a dodge. It was a straightforward question: Can you make yourself not believe in God? Yes or no?

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But once you feel the joy of knowing him, and the truth (Holy Spirit) is revealed to you, you can't help but try and share it with your fellow man.

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And Muslims express the same feeling, believe me! And yet, they completely disagree with you on the details.

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That is part of the reason why I wish some athiests were Christian. It would be an honor to have people like you sharing in the joy of knowing Christ.

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I understand that. I just wish you would understand that, from our perspective (and please don't take this as an insult), it comes across like it would come across to you if a person in a cult was trying to tell you about the joy of being in their cult. It could be a great person, a kind person, a person who lives their life well - but nonetheless, their ideas come across as kooky, and even if you wanted to, there is no way you could make yourself believe in their cult. This probably seems insulting to you, and believe me, that isn't my goal. I just want you to know what it sounds like to an atheist; I know that you, as a Christian yourself, disagree on how it sounds.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I prophecy the following:And lo, the blazing ball in the heavens, the SUN, shall fall from its place above, to beyond the western horizon. But, behold! For hours later, the sun shall rise in the EAST, and return to the heights of the heavens! Rise, Fall, the sun shall cycle as such every day!Can you see why having an obvious or vague prophecy is relevant to this discussion, and why Schraff isn't impressed with them?

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ok, would you like a non-daily occurence? How about how which nations are the most powerful in the world will change? Or that (insert nation here) will have a great leader who everyone loves, who will change his country for the better. Or that (insert nation here) will suffer horrible tyrrany, but rise above it. Etc.These are the sorts of things that the bible "prophecied". They're all blatantly obvious, because they're pretty much guaranteed to occur at some point.

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Bad analagy, try again.

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You know that looked to you? That's the same as your religion looks to us.

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I can see by your analagy, that you don't know who Christ is.

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Oh please. I was just presenting a case that comes across just as silly as Christianity comes across, using an equivalent level of mysticism, so that you'll know what your beliefs look like to atheists. That is what you look like to atheists. Are you not even trying to see from the other side?

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In Israel itself, the most noteworthy thing about Jesus at the time was how *little* impact he had.

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Because they were the ones who persecuted him. Of course they didn't want to make a big deal about it.

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Hold on there, now! You were claiming that Christianity is true and spread because there were so many witnesses. And yet, as I pointed out, even by Christian docrtine, it was carried to the world largely by Paul, who wasn't there for any of what happened.

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They are truly as convinced that what they know is the truth as you are (if you doubt me, let me redirect you to some Muslims' blogs

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I already explained to you why, you as a non-believer, cannot use millions of people to discredit anything.

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You never explained why the fact that because the world's fastest growing religion (Islam) has people who profess to know something is the truth as deeply (or moreso) as you do, is not applicable. Please do.

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Really? I have never heard this one before. Tell me about all the people converting over to muslim, show me proof.

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Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world. (cnn.com). That took a whole two seconds to find on google. They cite the fact that, for example, in the US, nearly 80% of the mosques were built in the last 12 years. Converts are especially common among the US's African-American population.

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Christianity is only declining here in America, thanks to people like you, science, and bad Christians.

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I feel honored to be in the same category with science. Science, I'm on your side!

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I want you to see it from an atheist's perspective.

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I don't need to, I was an athiest for 31 years.

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Mmhmm. Would you have used the word "atheist" to decribe yourself during those 31 years? What were your reasons for being "atheist". Please, more details.

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That was a dodge. It was a straightforward question: Can you make yourself not believe in God? Yes or no?

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At this point in time, I can give a qualified no.

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Thank you very much. And nether can an atheist just "make themself believe in God".

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And Muslims express the same feeling, believe me! And yet, they completely disagree with you on the details.

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It must not be the same then. There is no doubt that many things in life can give you joy, and peace, and a goody goody feeling. You could even meditate yourself into a feeling of bliss. I have experienced many of these things, but none can compare to the way the Holy Spirit speaks to me, and makes me feel, and guides me through my life now. He took a life that was already pretty good, and made it that much better.

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You sound exactly like them. Want an email address?Tell me, how would you explain me looking ten years younger, and me being instantly smarter? I can see many things in people, and life, that I just could not see before. Is that all in my head. Did my delusional crack-up make me smarter? Is that normal for crazy people to all of a sudden be smarter and look younger?This probably seems insulting to you, and believe me, that isn't my goal. I just want you to know what it sounds like to an atheist; I know that you, as a Christian yourself, disagree on how it sounds.No, I agree completely with you. But you never know, I might just say something to you that makes some sense. Then it wouldn't even have an affect on you now, but maybe 5 years from now, combined with a bunch of other observations(your own), and contributions of knowledge, you may indeed find him on your own.I feel that the fact that your are talking to me, is an indication of your quest of knowledge about him. You can keep asking me questions and drilling me for answers, until you decide that I just don't know what I'm talking about, or you heard enough, or whatever.If you think that you need to prove God's existance before you will believe in him, it will take you longer to actually have him come to you in his fullness. You can however prove it to yourself through subjective, and your own confirmed objective evidences. The instructions for it are in the bible. You can listen to other people talk about it, and disregard what you think doesn't make any sense.My only point from my original statement is that I do not think anyless of anybody because of their belief in one thing or another. But I wish to those people that they would find God on their own, to share in the joy of it.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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First-off, I didn't like the way they thought, and the way they treated me. It was against what Jesus was saying in the Bible(remember the bible, their own guide book?). So here they present a manual of God to me, and they can't even follow it.

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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Then she preceeded to tell us hail mary and prayer to saint anthony, so I raised my hand and asked: "where in the bible are these prayers?"

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I almost received a beating.

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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So I said to myself: what the heck is going on here? Jesus taught us how to pray, and he is the Son of God, and now this human wants me to pray to other dead humans, or else I will get a beating?

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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That and when I used to sit in church, I would get filled with angry, that would sometimes transend into rage, almost like the way some of the non-believers in here feel, because I felt so much evil in the church.

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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So I decided at 8 that the church was full of crap, and there is no God, and all these people are believing in a figment of there imagination. I figured if there is God, he should show himself to me, because the world is full of crap. So I followed my own ways based on objective evidences and what was taught to me in schools. You can't always test what is taught to you in the schools, but you figure, it must have passed a panel of experts to get taught in school, so it must be right.

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Uh huh, so I'm supposed to believe that because some people added in some prayers, that convinced you that there was no God? Please, try a more believable stance.

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My parents weren't religious, and they weren't guiding me in that way. They choose to just send me to school and learn that way about God.

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Then when I was 25, I had my first child, and a light bulb went off, and I started to read the bible, and compare what I read to real life, and 13 years after that it all made sense. Especially when the Holy Spirit ran me over like a frieght train. I now try to dedicate myself to the Lord as much as I can.

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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You know for those 13 years, I would verbally accept God, but deep down I had my doubts still. It wasn't until the promise of the Holy Spirit made by Jesus was fullfilled that the truth was known to me, and I then felt as I was a new spiritual creation in the eyes of the Lord.

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So, you were raised Christian, didn't like how Christians behaved, and decided not to bother with religion. Got it. That's not an atheist.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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So bingo! there your mis-conception in action.

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Ok, please tell me what is more *objectively* more realistic about A vs. B:A) Sri Lanka
B) Israel
A) Nailed to a cross
B) Eaten by a tiger
A) Ascended to an invisible kingdom
B) Became a spirit
A) Wine to blood
B) Water to blood
A) You can ascend into the invisible kingdom, too
B) You can become a spirit, tooAlso, be aware that you can't use the argument that early Christians had direct evidence, as they simply believed what Paul told them - Paul, who was not a witness to the events.

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I did already. you won't believe in something because millions of people do, so why should you use millions of people as evidence against something.

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Because you *do* use it as evidence for the truthfulness of your beliefs - that the word of Christ has touched so many people, or whatnot.

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Besides, how do you know that we are not all right?

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Because of contradictory beliefs, perhaps?

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Like I would ever believe the media for anything other than a distorted truth to get you to read, and please visit our sponsers.

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Hehe, ok, then this is going to go nowhere fast. You ask for evidence, I provide you an article from CNN.com, and you claim that it's wrong without giving counterevidence. What, do you think CNN is staffed with a bunch of God-hating atheists trying to undermine Christianity by falsely portraying Islam as being on the rise due to converts when it isn't?

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That to me is an indication that muslims are coming here to America, not that it is growing.

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The numbers certainly don't match your theory. Of those Arab Americans, about 75% are arab Christians (partially due to Lebanese making up over 1/3 of all Arab Americans). I could go into Indonesian, Persian, African, or Turkish immigrants, but you'll find no help there either.Here's a study on the demographics of muslim Americans that you might want to read. 19,000 converts per year, 14,000 of those being African American. 183,000 Americans have become muslims; 98,000 have left the faith. That is clearly a significant net conversion in the direction of Islam. 183,000 might not seem to be too much in comparison to a total population of 2-3 million muslims, but when people convert, their descendants tend to be raised in the religion that the parent converted to, and most converts are young unmarried males.Who do you think it is that is converting? Jews?
(the obvious answer is, Christians).

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I don't think I ever said he could. That is why you need people like me to tell you the good news brother. lol

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The "Good News" that we've been made well aware of by every passing Christian evangelist? That's all over the air waves? That's plastered across the net?Please excuse if I say I've already heard it a thousand times, and that doesn't make it one iota more believable.This message has been edited by Rei, 09-13-2004 08:12 PMThis message has been edited by Rei, 09-13-2004 08:14 PM

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Probably a fair assessment, Mike I should have said:"So, you were raised Catholic, didn't like how Catholics behaved, and decided not to bother with religion"

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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It counts as saying something really freakin' obvious. Or is Rei a divine prophet for knowing the sun will rise?

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Hey, don't discount the possibility of both.

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"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."