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Author
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Topic: Dear fellow christian, judge not lest you be judged
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 130 of 241 (142122)
09-13-2004 5:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 129 by Rei
09-13-2004 5:18 PM
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Can you see why having an obvious or vague prophecy is relevant to this discussion, and why Schraff isn't impressed with them? I very much doubt it. He clearly didn't see why this was the case the last time this was explained to him.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by Rei, posted 09-13-2004 5:18 PM | | Rei has not replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
What a delightfully adorable way of saying "yes, Dan. I had this all patiently explained to me, step by step, holding my hand the whole way, in a previous discussion. Now I wonder why people are not willing to be as patient with me as they were then, when I need the exact same thing explained to me all over again. It must be because they're against Jesus."
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Dan - you've came on here with a link to show how "correct" your side is Actually, it's a link to a thread in which it was explained to you, ad nauseum, why it's reasonable to expect some restrictions on what can be considered a valid/impressive prophecy.
Do you actually think that 120 specific Messianic prophecies (all fulfilled by one man) are vague and/or will happen eventually? No. I think they're all written in such a way that it would be wildly unimpressive if they did come true. If I'm wrong, please point to just one prophecy that adheres to that list of criteria from the other thread. (A slightly modified version of which was agreed upon by you for the purposes of discussion, I might add.) If you can't, it's ridiculous for you to spout off that the people you're arguing with simply won't accept any prophecy. We've made it clear what would qualify... Jesus simply doesn't make the cut.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
No. I won't adhere to the rules in the other thread, they are designed to make prophecies out to be untrue. I'd take the same route Schraf did, and ask you what rules you think would work, or what specifically about the existing rules you think is so unfair. But heck... you got asked that in the other thread, and dodged it then too. You've been told our reasoning behind those rules, and you've failed to point out the flaw in that reasoning as well. Other than complaining that Biblical prophecy doesn't measure up to them, that is.
Again, this is man at his most arrogant, telling God what does and does not qualify. Wow. You have to assume the existence of God, and worry about being "arrogant" towards him, in order to critically examine the Bible? No wonder it's so incredibly weak in the face of objective analysis.
I fear that no prophecy from the bible will satisfy you because of your unbelief We told you what will satisfy us, Mike. The Bible doesn't make the cut. That's the Bible's fault, not anyone else's. Sheesh, you'd think almighty GOD could write a prophecy or two that was just objectively impressive, wouldn't you? I mean... all this water into wine, and turning people to salt and what not... the guy can't write one lousy prophecy in straightforward language? This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-14-2004 09:38 AM
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
The rules are made by man. Did you expect them to be made by koala bears, then?
The prophecies TOTALLY destroy the intended "attempt" to stop their truth by introducing these silly rules. And therefore, the prophecies TOTALLY remove these silly rules, as they are true, and I have shown them to be true. So basically, "we already know they're true, so they don't need to be examined critically". It's astounding how even people who believe in the Bible's truth are afraid to let the Bible stand on its own merits.
Infact Dan, every single one is impressive, and true. Well then, these highly impressive prophecies should be plenty strong enough to stand up to a little critical reasoning, shouldn't they? So let's hop to it! Show us how incredibly impressive the prophecies of your God are! Leave no room for doubt! Just one prophecy that holds up to the standards listed in the other thread! Unless all the Bible provides by way of prophecies are vague, unfulfilled, out of context, uncorroborated, convoluted guesswork that only comes true becuase those who already believe in it are trying to make it happen. In which case, no, I guess they wouldn't match up to those standards. And maybe that sort of thing would impress you, but I gotta tell you, it leaves me less than stunned.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: For Mike-the-wiz
Dan, I think infact, the prophecies I have provided would even pass your test which is designed to stop them. Would this be, say, the one about stammering lips and tongue? Yeah, nothing convoluted there. Narrow it down for me, Mike. Show me one. And honestly, cut it with the whining about "designed to stop them". The rules are basic common sense. If the Bible is stopped by these rules, that speaks to a flaw in the Bible, not the rules.
But there is another reason why your rules cannot be allowed, atleast hear me out; If I say "wars and rumours of wars", and you say "too vague" - even though I understand what you mean, what if the prophecy really was true though? It is true, in the same way as Rei's prophecy about the sun rising. In which case the answer is "it's true... but who cares? My five year old neice could make that prophecy." Does it even count as a prophecy at that point? Well duh, no it doesn't. It counts as saying something really freakin' obvious. Or is Rei a divine prophet for knowing the sun will rise?
So; Despite me even relating to what you are saying - These rules might even dismiss truth. For example, what if you established many a prophecy as vague, and missed the truth of them? In the case of a prophecy such as this, nobody's dismissing the truth of saying, "there will be wars and rumors of war." We're just saying it's ridiculous to ascribe divinity to such a statement. Once again... in these cases the prophecies are not prophecies... they are simply statements of obivious fact.
Shall I provide 118 prophecies from Isaiah? Provide one that measures up.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 185 by Rei, posted 09-15-2004 4:24 PM | | Dan Carroll has not replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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I think we can now agree, and have established that these prophecies about Christ are accurate. Until you address post 183, (and the larger issue of valid/impressive prophecies) that amounts to a big, "So what?" This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-16-2004 03:49 PM
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Mike writes: You missed my point. What if the rules make it so that truth is not seen? "Wars and rumours of wars" you might say - according to your rules, "not a valid prophecy" but even if the rule makes it invalid, it might still be true! And once again Mike claps his hands over his ears and refuses to listen to what he doesn't want to hear, then repeats himself ad nauseum. I didn't miss your point... I addressed it directly:
Dan writes: It is true, in the same way as Rei's prophecy about the sun rising. In which case the answer is "it's true... but who cares? My five year old neice could make that prophecy." Does it even count as a prophecy at that point? Well duh, no it doesn't. It counts as saying something really freakin' obvious. Or is Rei a divine prophet for knowing the sun will rise? Nobody is dismissing the truth of the statement. We're simply responding "so what? That so-called prophecy is just a blindingly obvious statement of fact. It's like claiming divine powers for stating that the sun will come up tomorrow." So give us an actual prophecy, Mike. Not a blindingly obvious statement of fact.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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However, everybody knows the chances of the sun rising tomorrow. And everybody knows that at some indeterminate point in the future, there will be wars and rumors of war. What's your point?
I'd rather not remove a truth because of your rules. I don't recall striking any passages out of the bible. Only saying "unimpressive, what else you got?" (And judging by the lack of prophecies you've put up to the rules so far, the answer would seem to be "nothing".)
But now, I have shown nevertheless, specific biblical prophecies in Isaiah, which came to pass in the NT. Gimme some extra-biblical corroboration, Mike. The Bible claiming that the Bible is true means nothing.
In essence, this particular prophecy must be vague Well, bully for Jesus. He may have his reasons for making an obvious statement of fact, but it doesn't change that it is an obvious statement of fact.
Yet he said "wars and ru...." - which doesn't mean he is not telling the truth. Or that you're listening, even a little bit. WHETHER THE PROPHECY IS TRUE IS IRRELEVANT TO WHETHER IT IS VALID OR IMPRESSIVE. Do we need to get some handpuppets or something? Will that help you understand this incredibly simple point? (edited for grammar) This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-20-2004 12:31 PM
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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To put it another way... I predict that at some point, the political right in America will do something that will offend the political left in America. It's a true statement. And the truth of the statement does NOTHING to give ANYONE ANY REASON WHATSOEVER to be impressed by the "prophecy" I have delivered unto you. So does the Bible have any prophecies that would give us reason to be impressed? Any at all?
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
I for one, am happy for Mike to leave his response to thoughts from this thread over on the prophecy thread. How about it, Mike? Want to give us even one impressive prophecy, over on the other thread?
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Yes, I do mean that thread. And I'm not interested in getting the last word, I'm interested in you not weaseling out of this one. Especially because I fully expect that a month or so down the line, you'll be harping on about Biblical prophecies as if this conversation never happened, telling us all over again that there's simply no prophecy that would hold water with us. So go to the other thread. Give me one Biblical prophecy that holds up. Just one.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Dan, as much as I would love to go to that other thread, and debate the rules all over again, you full well know that I have no leg to stand on over there because I agreed to the rules in that thread. Mike, you have no leg to stand on over here. So what's the difference? I'm not asking you to debate the rules... you tried that here, and it didn't hold up. (No matter how many times you said "but they're true!") I'm asking for a prophecy that meets them. Hell, if you want to take one more post out (just one post!) to give me that one prophecy that holds up to critical analysis, I'm sure Moose'll be cool.
As for biblical prophecies, if you read this thread you will find many - which are even probably valid according to your rules. I read it. They're not. If I'm wrong, please point out the one that holds up.
You can have examples that suffice even your rules Really? Then it should be really easy for you to give us an example of one. So frikkin' do it already.
However, I am not obliged to heed man's rules over God's. I'll make you a deal... if God shows up and starts posting, we'll play by his rules. But as long as it's men having a conversation, how about we try conversing as men, huh?
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
We were talking about Christ prophecised And Christ is, of course, confirmed only within the Bible. Which means no extra-biblical corroboration. (Rule #4. Did you even read them before disagreeing with them so vehemently?) Which means we are left only with the Bible's word that the Bible is in fact true. And that's supposed to be a valid prophecy?
Apart from that, I'm not sure what else you seek of me, like Shraff, I'm sure you'll say they sat down and made the NT correlate with the Jewish bible. It's quite probable that they did. But it doesn't really matter one way or the other. We have no way of knowing that the events in the NT even happened apart from faith. Which means, no, it's not a valid prophecy, because we have no confirmation on the fulfillment of the prophecy. I'm sure you believe it on the word of the Bible alone. And more power to you. But so what?
My friend, you would have it that no prophecy will meet them, vague or specific. Repeat this a few more times. That'll make it true. We've told you several times what would qualify. You've failed to either present a logical reason why the rules we laid out don't work (your only arguments thus far being "but they're true!" and "well, you're an unbeliever",) or present a set of your own rules, or provide a prophecy that meets the rules we laid out. And yet you keep lobbing the accusation that we just don't want any prophecies to qualify.
THAT is the problem - you, an unbeliever, agree with the rules, and also unbelievers made them. I see. In order to analyze the Bible, you must already believe in the Bible. It's sad that the Bible is so unable to stand on its own merits. I wouldn't think it needed a handicap like that.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Who are you to make the rules as to what will qualify? Someone reading the Bible, and attempting to analyze it. Don't like 'em? Point out the flaws or present your own.
I have presented a reason. In trying to show what is valid, you might dismiss that which is true. Is there a whistling in your head on a windy day? Honest, I'm curious.
WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT DOES NOT MATTER. A statement can be true, and still not qualify as a prophecy, for reasons shown in previous posts. (That you have yet to address.)
people shall also think they are untrue because it's easy to confuse valid and true.. Great. Between the two of us, is there any such confusion? If not, what's your problem? We're the ones discussing this.
Exactly. You will happily dismiss the whole bible BECAUSE of your rules. No, only those that cannot be confirmed outside of the Bible. For instance, if the wars/rumors referred to a specific war, there would be confirmation! We could point to the specific wars and rumors! Wow, see how simple that is? (I'm guessing not, but hope springs eternal.) And I notice you don't argue the reasoning behind eliminating those with no extra-Biblical corroboration... only complain that it happens. Interesting.
Made by none-believers who have doubt. So? Once again, the Bible needs the handicap of pre-existing belief?
Designed biasedly Cool, then it should be easy for you to point out the logical flaws, or at least present an unbiased version. Let's hear it.
How about the Gospel of Peter then Dan? Is that out of the bible? Is one of the Gospels outside the Bible. Do you honestly need this answered? If so, I'll get the handpuppets.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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