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Author Topic:   "Best" evidence for evolution.
jar
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Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 256 of 759 (869661)
01-03-2020 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by JonF
01-03-2020 11:17 AM


And one more thing
And it's important to remember how selection works. Any new mutations that are not so detrimental that they prevent that individual from reproducing can get passed on. So even partial changes that are not so serious that they keep the critter from reproducing are not selected against.

BUT Wait...there's more.

Any mutations that confer an increased advantage in breeding or survival are selective passed on.

That means the neutral or positive mutations can continue but the negative mutations are selectively removed.

Mutations plus Selection guarantees that there will be new species over time.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 759 (869662)
01-03-2020 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by jar
01-03-2020 11:26 AM


Re: And one more thing
As long as you speak in abstract generalizations you can obscure the fact that it won't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 01-03-2020 11:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6171
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 258 of 759 (869664)
01-03-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
01-03-2020 11:30 AM


Re: And one more thing
As long as you speak in abstract generalizaions without evidence your opinion is meaningless.

Show your calculations of why it won't work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 01-03-2020 11:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 259 of 759 (869665)
01-03-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
01-03-2020 11:30 AM


Re: And one more thing
Faith writes:

As long as you speak in abstract generalizations you can obscure the fact that it won't work.

And yet the reality is that it does work. The Turtle moves.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 260 of 759 (869669)
01-03-2020 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
01-03-2020 11:30 AM


Re: And one more thing
As long as you speak in abstract generalizations you can obscure the fact that it won't work.

jar was not "speaking in abstract generalizations", but rather describing the basics of what evolution is and how it works.

Yet again you demonstrate that you have no clue what evolution is and hence no clue how it works. And despite years of our repeated efforts to explain to you what evolution is and how it works (the most recent effort being jar's to which you are "replying"), you steadfastly refuse to ever learn anything. As a result of your willful ignrunce, your head is filled with pure crap. And as a result, every time you "evaluate evolution" using that pure crap in your head, everything you have to say on the matter is nothing but pure crap.

If you never learn anything about evolution, then you can never possibly oppose it effectively.

From the index page of the creation/evolution section of my site, here are brief statements of my position:

quote:
From the start, my approach has been to examine and critique creationist claims. My position is that:
  • If you want to oppose evolution, then you need to do so honestly and truthfully.
  • Using false and deceptive claims must be avoided because of the damage that that does to your cause, which I assume to be The Cause of Christ.
  • Using false and deceptive claims both drives away potential converts (especially those with any knowledge of science and hence can readily see how bogus your claims are, so you just gave them very good reasons to reject your religion from this point on) and entraps believers into a vicious circle of lies that will either corrupt them morally or eventually destroy their faith.
  • You also need to learn as much as you possibly can about actual science, including evolution. Going to war against an enemy (as you are warring against evolution) without knowing anything about that enemy will lead you to defeat, so it is in your own best interest to learn all that you can learn (HINT: not from creationist sources, since they will only feed you misinformation).

Later I word it more succinctly:

quote:
If you honestly and truly want to fight evolution, then at least do it right! Learn everything you can about evolution and then attack it, not some shtupid strawman caricature of it. And do so honestly and truthfully!

By refusing to fight evolution honestly and truthfully, but rather using "creation science" instead, you are constantly shooting yourself in the foot, dooming your cause to failure and your followers to losing their faith.


Faith, you steadfastly refuse to learn anything about actual science, including evolution. You persist in using false and deceptive claims. You refuse to act honestly and truthfully.

You are a prime example of the worst characteristics of creationists. You are the wicked fruit which exposes your religion as the wicked tree that Jesus called to be chopped down and thrown into the fire as per the Matthew 7:20 Test.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 261 of 759 (869671)
01-03-2020 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
01-03-2020 10:47 AM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
It's the main point I was making so of course if you call it irrelevant you don't let me make my point.

You've already made your point. Your point is pure crap because it is based completely on pure crap.

My argument was that trial and error would be impossible because the number of trials even to get a small functioning part would be impossible and the necessary trials to build on that small function would be beyond beyond.

What the hell does trial and error have to do with anything? We are talking about evolution while you are talking about anything but evolution.

As I have already explained to you in Message 249, evolution is not trial and error nor does evolution use trial and error. Your persistent misrepresentions are completely false and are nothing but attempts at deception.

Trial and error is based on single-step selection in which a single huge step is attempted by a single individual which either completely succeeds or completely fails. That has nothing whatsoever to do with how evolution works, nor even with how life itself works -- a working definition of evolution would be "the results of life doing what life does."

Instead, evolution and life itself use cumulative selection, which involves the accumulation of small steps taken by populations of individuals -- at the very least learn that populations evolve, not individuals.

The probability of cumulative selection succeeding is virtually certain (ie, approaching 100%) whereas the probability of single-step selection is virtually impossible (ie, approaching 0%). I worked all that out in my MPROBS page, so go back and read it again before you try to "refute" it -- you will need to show where the math is wrong.

I've already explained all that to you in Message 249. Go back and reread it, but this time try to understand what I'm explaining to you.

For that matter, if you truly believe in your position, then you must describe it in sufficient detail listing all your assumptions and describing step by step how you reach your conclusions by showing the math!

You'd have to show a LOT of such mutations to begin to counter my argument.

No, that is not the case as AnswersInGenitals pointed out with his examples of hyperdactyly and cor triatriatum which are big changes in the phenotype caused by single mutations. I also explained that to you in Message 249. Go back and reread it, but this time try to understand what I'm explaining to you.

BTW, I just added a link for "phenotype", because I just realized that you most likely also have no clue what that word means. It's basic knowledge, but you have so often displayed complete ignrunce of very basic knowledge (eg, that hotels and restaurants charge for their services as in the case of Trump's corrupt use of his golf resorts to funnel government money into his own pocket) so we can never assume anything with you. That is yet another reason why you must reveal to us all the assumptions that you are using.

I understand you guys don't like my arguments but you are awfully obvious about it which kind of makes my point.

Well, we do not like falsehoods, deception, and crap. Since that's all that your arguments are, what's there to like?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 01-03-2020 10:47 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 01-03-2020 5:05 PM dwise1 has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 759 (869677)
01-03-2020 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by dwise1
01-03-2020 1:32 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
You all think microevolution just keeps going but that is impossible. That is why I'm saying all you've got to get from species to species is trial and error. It's the only possibility. You can call it crap all you want. Obviously that makes yhou feel better but it doesn't change the fact that you can't get from one species to another any other way, and there's no way to predict that you're going to get any kind of useful mutations.. The genetic stuff is not built into the genome, that's only for the variations within the species. I'll come back to this again, can't get through it all now. "Cumulative selection" is a crock. You guys will believe anything. Selection can't do anything, you have to have the stuff to select and that's where all you've got is trial and error.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by dwise1, posted 01-03-2020 1:32 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 264 by jar, posted 01-03-2020 5:40 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 265 by Taq, posted 01-03-2020 6:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 266 by dwise1, posted 01-03-2020 8:07 PM Faith has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6171
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 263 of 759 (869679)
01-03-2020 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
01-03-2020 5:05 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
You all think microevolution just keeps going but that is impossible. That is why I'm saying all you've got to get from species to species is trial and error. It's the only possibility. You can call it crap all you want. Obviously that makes yhou feel better but it doesn't change the fact that you can't get from one species to another any other way, and there's no way to predict that you're going to get any kind of useful mutations.. The genetic stuff is not built into the genome, that's only for the variations within the species. I'll come back to this again, can't get through it all now

As long as you speak in abstract generalizations your fantasies are meaningless.

Selection can't do anything, you have to have the stuff to select and that's where all you've got is trial and error.

Selection selects, that has an effect. Trial and error plus selection is staggeringly powerful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 01-03-2020 5:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 264 of 759 (869680)
01-03-2020 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
01-03-2020 5:05 PM


Basics Faith, learn the basics.
Faith writes:

Obviously that makes yhou feel better but it doesn't change the fact that you can't get from one species to another any other way, and there's no way to predict that you're going to get any kind of useful mutations..

Learn the basics Faith. I even explained them to you above but I will repeat yet again.

quote:
And it's important to remember how selection works. Any new mutations that are not so detrimental that they prevent that individual from reproducing can get passed on. So even partial changes that are not so serious that they keep the critter from reproducing are not selected against.

BUT Wait...there's more.

Any mutations that confer an increased advantage in breeding or survival are selective passed on.

That means the neutral or positive mutations can continue but the negative mutations are selectively removed.

Mutations plus Selection guarantees that there will be new species over time.


From Message 256

The beauty is that mutations do happen and selection tosses the ones that are really so detrimental it keeps the critter from reproducing but keeps the ones that are neutral or beneficial.

It really does guarantee that there must be new species over time.

Really Faith, try to learn the basics and throw all the truly silly stuff like Creationism and the Flood and the Christianity you market away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 8445
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 265 of 759 (869683)
01-03-2020 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
01-03-2020 5:05 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
Faith writes:

You all think microevolution just keeps going but that is impossible.

Then show me a single difference between the chimp and human genomes that could not have been accomplished by microevolution from a common ancestor.

Obviously that makes yhou feel better but it doesn't change the fact that you can't get from one species to another any other way, and there's no way to predict that you're going to get any kind of useful mutations..

See above.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4366
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 266 of 759 (869685)
01-03-2020 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
01-03-2020 5:05 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
You all think microevolution just keeps going but that is impossible.

No, rather it is inevitable. Because that is how life works and what life does! That's reality!

We normals cannot understand why you hate reality so very much. Maybe you've been bitten by reality. That's understandable since reality does have a history of biting people who get lost inside of their own delusions and nonsensical fantasies. But when reality bites, it's not because it's mean, but rather that it's trying to wake you up. So wake up already!

That is why I'm saying all you've got to get from species to species is trial and error. It's the only possibility.

First, trial and error is not the only possibility, not by a long shot. You keep forgetting about evolution. Despite the nonsensical crap inside your head which prevents you from starting to learn from our repeated attempts to teach you, evolution is not trial and error, not even close.

Second, just using actual words to express nonsense does change that nonsense into anything different (eg, something that does make sense). Nonsense remains nonsense, especially your kind of contrary-to-reality nonsense.

So in an attempt at honesty (like reality, that's another foreign concept to you), you should reword your nonsense with nonsensical words; correcting your sentence: "That is why I'm saying all you've got to get from kerplopplop to kerplopplop is kerflooey."

There, now your nonsense is clearly marked as being nonsense.

... but it doesn't change the fact that you can't get from one species to another any other way, and there's no way to predict that you're going to get any kind of useful mutations..

Who's talking about predicting how useful a mutation would be? It would require far more knowledge than we have acquired so far in order to predict what kinds of physical effects a particular genetic change would have -- VOCABULARY LESSON for Biology 101: the genotype is an individual organism's genetic "stuff", the phenotype is an individual organism's physical characteristics which are the expression of its genotype, and mutations are one form of change in the genotype.

However, we can find mutations that have happened in the past and can see after the fact what effects those mutations had had on the phenotype. Furthermore, we can also see after the fact whether those mutations had proven useful (ie, beneficial), deleterious (ie, harmful), or neutral (eg, changes in the phenotype that didn't make any difference, mutations that didn't change the phenotype).

We can also study after the fact the effects of past mutations on the species' genome (eg, allele frequencies) which would be how we'd determine whether a given mutation was beneficial or not. In doing so, we have to take into account that part of evolution that you keep ignoring: selection. Most mutations would be neutral on their own, such that it is through the organism's phenotype's interaction with its environment that actually determines whether that mutation was beneficial, detrimental, or neutral.

Also keep in mind the ultimate form of selection. If a mutation negatively impacts the viability of the organism, then that would be that. We keep hearing the figure of 50% of all zygotes (Biology VOCAB: fertilized egg) with an unviable genotype which causes them to either spontaneously abort or fail to sprout -- that's why when you plant seeds you put in a few seeds at a time. That would also tend to account for most of the deleterious mutations, so that we will see fewer in adult organisms.

Furthermore, we also understand the different kinds of mutations, including how they occur and what kinds of effects they can have.

We can perform statistical analysis based on all those studies to arrive at the probabilities of the different kinds of mutations happening. So we can still have a fairly good idea of what we can expect.

Of course, you don't know anything about any of that. Which is why all you can come up with is crap. But if you were to at least try to learn, then you could improve.

And you keep leaving out evolution. Evolution is real and integral to how life works. You cannot just ignore it and wish it away like you try (and fail) to do with reality. It's still there and it's still working.

The genetic stuff is not built into the genome, ...

Uh, the "genetic stuff" is what the genome is made of.

You really need to learn something.

... , that's only for the variations within the species.

The genome is the collective description of a species' genotypes, whereas the genotypes are what each individual's "genetic stuff" is. So then, yes, each genotype is a variation on the genome.

So what's your point? Outside of some nonsensical crap that you will make up.

"Cumulative selection" is a crock.

No, rather cumulative selection describes how life works. But since you hate reality so much that you live in a fantasy universe constructed of delusion and pure crap, you don't know that.

Populations contain individuals who are very similar to each other, but also different. Each generation spawns offspring who are very similar to their parents yet also slightly different. Those individuals who are better able to survive and reproduce have their genotypes better represented in the next generation -- that better representation would be due to their phenotypes being selected for. The result over generations would be a population that is better adapted to its environment. And when that environment changes out from under them (or the population migrates into a new environment), then selective pressure would be for phenotypes that are better adapted to that new environment.

That is how life works. And it has nothing at all to do with your kerflooey (what you call "trial and error").

Selection can't do anything, you have to have the stuff to select and that's where all you've got is trial and error.

Selection is very powerful, especially cumulative selection. Mutation and other mechanisms (eg, recombination) increase the genetic variability of the population and selection filters out the less fit characteristics. The two working together is very basically how evolution works. And it is what life does.

You keep ignoring evolution, but it isn't going to go away. You need to at least learn something about it.

Edited by dwise1, : Removed typo of extra "not": ""First, not trial and error is not the only possibility, not by a long shot." should be "First, trial and error is not the only possibility, not by a long shot."


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Replies to this message:
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Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 689
Joined: 05-04-2019


(1)
Message 267 of 759 (869708)
01-04-2020 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
12-30-2019 7:55 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
OK

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Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 689
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 268 of 759 (869710)
01-04-2020 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
12-30-2019 8:43 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
Evolution, like the formation of stars or the motions of plate tectonics, is a reasonably slow process, as scientific processes go, but it has been observed by humans. New species have been observed to evolve, of course, and scientists have used the principles of evolution many times in dealing with things like patterns of disease mutation, drug resistance, pesticide resistance, etc.

On the other hand, if you were to demand that, for example, a new family of arthropod must be shown to evolve over a few weeks in a laboratory, you wouldn't be rational.


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 Message 198 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 8:43 PM Faith has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 269 of 759 (869713)
01-04-2020 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Sarah Bellum
01-04-2020 5:36 PM


Re: Response to Message 107
Evolution beyond intraspecies microevolution has NOT been observed. It doesn't happen, never happened, isn't going to happen. Everything you call evolution is just normal variation within a species, which includes some mutational effects.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 138 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 270 of 759 (869716)
01-04-2020 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by dwise1
01-03-2020 8:07 PM


Re: Message 107, topic 7: other stuff
You all think microevolution just keeps going but that is impossible.

No, rather it is inevitable. Because that is how life works and what life does! That's reality!

The genome of any given creature has only the stuff that makes that creature and no others. Mutations may change some of the particular expressions of some of its particular code, but it cannot do anything beyond the parameters set by the genome. Which you'd know if you weren't under the spell of the ToE and were free to think instead.

That is why I'm saying all you've got to get from species to species is trial and error. It's the only possibility.

First, trial and error is not the only possibility, not by a long shot. You keep forgetting about evolution.

And of course you don't bother to say how "evolution" is some kind of real alternative, which of course it isn't. Evolution can't happen. You have this strong faith that it can and does but that's all you have. It can't happen. If the genetic stuff isn't built into the genome of the "evolving" creature all you have is trial and error despite your "not by a long shot." How many millions of trials do you think it would take to get from the reptile type of ear to the mammal type of ear? It can't happen. And that's not counting all the other things that have to change by trial and error at the same time which multiplies the problem by bazillions.


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Replies to this message:
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