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Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
custard Inactive Member |
I need to at least hear some convincing scientific, non-personal, objective evidence or proof When you provide a sugar rich environment to yeast, they create alcohol. What better evidence is there?
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custard Inactive Member |
Also Muhammad did no miracles and therefore had no divine evidence of his claims. Uh, how about the fact that Mohammad, being a practical illiterate, composed and wrote the standard for modern Arabic language and grammar in what is often recognized as some of the greatest Arabic prose of all time with the assistance of an Angel? Would that count as a miracle?
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custard Inactive Member |
Do you know how many geniuses have lived in our world?. No that is not a miracle Even the angel part? Conversing with an angel isn't the tiniest bit miraculous?
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custard Inactive Member |
It is obvious to everyone that there is absolutely no "proof" or "evidence" of the existence of Jesus. Do you mean existence as an actual person? If so, Jesus is mentioned by Josephus. -nm, re-read your posts. You mean proof of Jesus as a divine entity, right? This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 08:39 PM
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custard Inactive Member |
That's true (I think), but it demonstrates independent confirmation of an individual's existence by a non-christian historian.
I think it counts as a piece, albeit small, of evidence that such an individual may have existed. We use evidence such as this for many historical figures. Here are some other non-christian sources (from this compilation Proving the historic Jesus):
1-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. "...he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." He also wrote, "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." 2- Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. 3-Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles. Emperor Tiberius acted on Pilate's report, according to Tertullian, to the Roman Senate. "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians."
This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 09:01 PM This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 09:02 PM
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custard Inactive Member |
I wasn't aware that Jesus is referred to in the Talmud (same source as above):
The Talmud, which consists of Jewish traditions handed down orally from generation to generation, was organized by Rabbi Akiba before his death in 135 A.D. The writings in the Talmud embrace the legal, ritual and exegetical commentaries that have developed right down to contemporary times. In Sanhedrin 43a, reference to Jesus is found. "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus' disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.
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custard Inactive Member |
Yeah, I'm just trying to show evidence that Jesus actually existed.
I don't think there are any documented 'eye witness' accounts, only writings based on other writings (like Josephus). But I think that it is notable that non-christians at least make passing mention to the guy.
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custard Inactive Member |
Like Lam, I am curious as to what historical evidence there is for Jesus. If it is a matter of faith that is fine...but since it is often stated as an unassailable fact that he lived, what is the evidence? Dude, I think what has been posted here is about it. That's why xians pull the 'there's as much historical proof of Jesus as there is for socrates' line. (Although no one has commented on the Talmud entries interestingly). I'm satisified with the secondary and tertiary evidence that a guy identified as Jesus did or said some notable things that made the Romans put him to death. Of course it isn't 100% proof, but what would be for a historical figure? We accept that pharoas and kings existed as scant, or less, evidence than what we see here. Unless Lam wants to be unreasonable, I think he has to agree that a guy called Jesus probably existed and said or did enough things to piss off the Romans (and Jews). What really gets fuzzy, and is truly conjecture is exactly WHAT he said, did, looked like, etc.
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custard Inactive Member |
percy writes: The Romans kept meticulous records, and yet despite all the turmoil caused by Jesus's ministry, despite the sermon on the mount and the sermon and the plain, despite all the miracles, Jesus received not a single contemporaneous mention. You kind of make it sound like we have warehouses of old Roman records that don't have any reference to Jesus. Yes the Romans kept good records, so did the Greeks, but only a fraction survived. This argument seems similar to the Creo argument "but if there were all these transitional animals, why aren't there any fossils?" I think before we can seriously challenge the idea that Jesus didn't exist, or is a fabricated conglomerate of other people, we would have to show that writers such as Josephus and Talmudic scribes had nothing to base their writings on but legend or gossip. Isn't it generally agreed that Josephus and later writers were probably working from other written documents from the period? I think you make a good argument for the legendary aspects of Christ. It really isn't that much different, in my opinion, from Arthurian legend - which is also based on one individual about whom not much was written.
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custard Inactive Member |
So, are you saying that Zeus, Apollo, and every other olympian god existed? The greeks did hold onto their religious beliefs about the olympian gods for a very long time you know. Duh! Didn't you see that Star Trek episode Who Mourns for Adonais?
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custard Inactive Member |
It can at least be said he was a revolutionary and genius leader. But I think that's one of the points of this thread, and Percy illustrates this in his post: how do we know this is the least that can be said? What do we really know about Jesus the historical figure outside of the bible? Interestingly, I just finished reading two documents criticizing the Josephus reference to Jesus; it accused it of being a forgery. Since I think this pertains to the 'give me so-called proof of Jesus' question, would anyone help me verify or invalidate the non-christian sources we have for the existence of Jesus. To date I know of only the following: 1- Flavius Josephus (died 97AD) who wrote quote: 2- Tacitus (115AD) quote: 3- Tetullian (200 AD) quote: 4- Talmud-Sanhedrin43 quote: That's all I can find. Anyone have any specific commentary or criticism for any of these sources or what they wrote? PS - regarding contemporary reports of John the B - anyone able to point me in the right direction? This message has been edited by custard, 06-30-2004 03:34 AM
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custard Inactive Member |
That quote from Josephus is widely regarded to be fake - http://members.cox.net/galatians/Josephus.htm which also deals with the quote from Tacitus. Yeah, but a similar quote from an Arabic translation of Josephus's Antiquities is what I used in my post. It doesn't have the messianic stuff the contentious quote does. Is this (Arabic version) a forgery as well? The reasons why the Tacitus quote might be unreliable are interesting, but I don't find them particularly compelling - a lot of speculation - but maybe there is more in depth analysis available as those are one liners that seem open to interpretation. This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 02:26 AM
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custard Inactive Member |
edited for redundancy
This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 02:33 AM
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