Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.

I've just read most of the thread. I see that Lam is frustrated. It comes back to belief, and believing in the bible. Obviously no one can prove Jesus exists, or force Lam to believe the bible. So I must simply admitt that I myself cannot prove Christ exists or existed, to my knowledge anyway. I could try but it's quite an ask. Riverat and Almeyda think they are helping but Lam just isn't going to "believe in his heart" because he is asking for proof. You have to put yourself in his position to comprehend that. So "proof through belief" is not sufficient to him. When you understand that guys, then you'll understand and negotiate with him better. Ofcourse, Jesus himself says it comes own to belief anyway.Now here's a story. They said catapult boy existed, and he used marbles to fire at his victims. I believed that catapult boy would come and get me when I was a kid. One day my cousin locked me in this stoop, and ran off. ...There then stood catapult boy, laughing and standing with his catapult. But when I started to cry, he opened the gate, and let me out. So catapult boy wasn't really that mean afterall...and I guess he did exist, but you only have my testimony. Maybe he lost his marbles.

For Born2Preach, I have pasted my response here B2P, to your rejected thread; (I hope u find this message ofcourse)I can try and make a convincing case that there is "proof" for God. You see, to me, it's rather simple, we are here, so there is God. If there was no God, we wouldn't be here. Everything in existence is from God. To falsify my Theory, you can try and show that nothing exists. However, most rational people can see that the reality is, that we do exist, and therefore by reasoning alone one must conclude God. If there is something, why is there something? There is no reason for anything unless there is God. Why would I be typing this? I need an answer NOW B2P! Colossians: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers: All things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Now there is the universe, and all it's glory is for God.If there was no God, then there would be no time because time wouldn't matter. Think about it; Everything would surely just happen in no time. So why is there time? I need an answer!!Now; There is the fine-tuning of this universe. WHY!?! There is no need for life or time or fine-tuned universes if there is no God. Why would life come about? That's right, why would it bother to be?Now; Why am I alive? Why am I here? Why do I think? Why is there natural processes? Why does my body bother to survive? I insist that everything in existence, and all the natural laws, have no business coming about if there is no God. I mean, why would they? Why would there be any beginning? Why? Why would it? Why should it? If it simply is then it simply isn't. So now you must show me it isn't, to falsify this. (Man I'm good)

Lam, the idea is that I am trying to convince my pal Born2preach that God exists, as in this thread; here, he seems to be having doubts. So I thought I would have a "go" at convincing him, that's all.I made a reasonable case there, with some questions that I personally - have and do ask. I am convinced that God exists and for me, the proof is everything in existence.As for my past comment, I stand by that - I would find it extremely hard to prove Christ, and I know you seek proof. But check out that link, and see that I am trying to re-affirm B2P's faith because he seems to be loosing it. As for Hambre, that didn't refute what I said I'm afraid.

Infact, if we weren't here at all - that would falsify it. SO, I have infact told you how you can falsify it. That doesn't remove our existence. So answer my questions - why!?! Why do we exist? Why would there be time or any of those things you ignored.So, wishful thinking is that this is all some indifferent Dawkins accident. Hah! You forgot to adress my modus ponen. Atleast address it before attacking the person with some non-relevant sarcastic side banterism.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-23-2004 05:39 PM

Well ofcourse you would enjoy him becoming an unbeliever Lam, yet who is "without sin" ? -Now, what say you - why am I here?( My intention wasn't to attack your thread btw, Admin said this was the thread, and rejected B2P's.)This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-23-2004 05:47 PM

Bumped for.

This is unfruitful baloney input. I contend that logic, truth and proof remain what they were yesterday, without my opinion. Therefore, I still say that Time and This Universe are infact here, and I have shown why they needn't be with my reasoning.Time- Wouldn't happen, everything could happen in no time if there was no God. Likewise, why would anything come about? You are right that I have made a conditional implication. But here's another with the antecedant of If anything exists THEN (consequent) God exists.So let us now obey logic by observing the modus tollens rule;If God doesn't exist then Nothing exists.However, I have backed up this implication with my reasoning (like people do in arguments) Certainly I have obeyed logic, proof and truth, and instead you remark about four year olds and apparently wish to boost your ego as an adult. LOL. wow, what a refutation, and to think your rep is outstanding. INFACT, it is directly relevant to it. My reasoning infact pertains to the implication, in that; If there is anything therefore God, what will anything show. If we are here THEN there is God, what does "here" show?1. I have looked at time (something)
2. I have looked at fine-tuning, again, something that exists according to this universe.
3. I have shown that there is no reason for anything to exist in a fine-tuned universe, life etc.. and WHY would it bother to? This, as per usual - is a nice song and dance by Mr Hambre, so he can avoid these very relevant/important questions concerning our very existence, and concentrate on remarks at Mike's expense and handwave my argument away as "unconvincing"- You must face the unavoidable fact that we exist, therefore God does. Indeed, anything evidences God, because of that bible quote I provided, written thousands of years ago under the influence of the Holy Spirit. And why would a bible exist like that, with all the agreeing scriptures about God? Or Christ? Why is there the Gospel, why should there be in a world without God? I NEED answers, or indeed this argument will atleast continue to convince me. And what I "want" is truly irrelevant to discussion Hambre, so make like a vulcan and quit the side-banter.

Oh? Is that right? Let's re-read what I said; So you see, it is not a selfish argument, but rather - the Universe is fine-tuned for us to live in, but also - there is time for things to happen in. Why? Why should there be? Why would there be? For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of GodAnd so - by the will of God I am. Not by any intentions of men, but by the will of God. But this all is leading down the path you want me to take, which is that you are strawmanning me as "selfish". What has this got to do with anything that God has made and said? THIS is arrogance - thinking you can know more than what God knows, call him sinful and tell HIM why the Universe is. Yet everything is of God and FOR GOD. Your study can show you what it seeks to, but it remains true that, WHY would there be anything? Why should there be?My conditional implication remains, because of this.

The universe cannot exist without God because it consists because of God. God made it, this is truth that cannot be refuted, because if there is something, then there is God. If there was no God, then there would be nothing, ever.Time is so that things can happen. Why? Why couldn't everything happen at the same time if there is no God?