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Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
The first book of the new testament was written at least 40 years after Jesus's death by someone that never met Jesus.
More like 25 years (early 30s to late 50s, which is when the earliest of Paul's letters were written).
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Just out of curiousity and this is not specifically directed at you, why do you believe he was even a single person? Why not several people who are were then later claimed to be a single person i.e. events, quotes, etc. attributed to one person that actually came from other people? Considering all supposed evidence post dates his hypothetical life, Jesus' life could be composed of the lives and events and interpretations thereof of multiple people. One sees such historical revisionism at much shallower time depths such as quotes ascribed to Lincoln that came from others...the cult of Che Guevarra etc. Why not with a religious figure?
It might help to distinguish between a single person about whom traditions accrete, and a true composite. Lincoln is a single historical figure, to whom some legendary material has been attributed by later tradition. The same is likely true of Jesus. He is sufficiently well anchored historically that we're essentially talking about a single person, but there's a big enough gap between his life and the surviving reports (much larger than with Lincoln, of course) that it's inevitable that the traditions associated with him would change and grow.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Depends on which person or which book your refer to I guess. Do you mean Biblical book or the source of the claim? In any case, your statement was about the first book in the New Testament, and it was wrong. There's no significant uncertainty about the dating of the earliest of Paul's epistles (unless one of the undated books is earlier, which is possible but unlikely).
I got the 40 figure from the fundies during a debate on biblical stuff some months ago. I think it was Prof Monte that told me that, not sure though.
Are you sure this wasn't the time to the first gospel account? It would fit much better.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Based on your knowledge then, when was the first thing in the NT written?
Having bothered to look in a book or two, I now see that the earliest letter of Paul (probably I Thess) is usually dated to around 51 AD, not the late 50s as I previously stated. Some would put it a few years later, in the mid 50s. Jesus died around 30 AD (give or take a few years), so the earliest book in the NT was written around 20 years after Jesus' death.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
AD = Anno Domini = "year of our lord". It was supposed to be dated from Jesus' birth (but it's probably off by a few years).
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
So, we know that there were Jews in Judea who believed that Jesus had lived, had died, and had resurrected no more than 5 years after his death. I feel that this is pretty strong evidence for his existence at least. No one makes up a myth with events 5 years in the past; you have to put things far enough into the mythical past to where they cannot be disproven.
We also know from Paul that he had met Jesus' brothers (and that he was not on the best of terms with them).
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
You would try to use a charlatan like Paul as a proof of Jesus?
No, historians use Paul as evidence for the existence of Jesus. If you want to dispute them, you'll have to engage their arguments, which your comments here do not begin to do.
And there is still much debate as to whether there really was a HJ. The paltry evidence (like Josephus and Tacitus) has been thoroughly refuted.
There is much debate among poorly informed people on the Internet, and in the not insignificant crackpot community. There's virtually no debate among scholars, whatever their religious persuasion.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
I find the mythicist argument to be the most convincing. Doherty's Jesus Puzzle website provides a well documented case for there being no historical Jesus.
Doherty is part of the crackpot community I mentioned. If you want to understand evolution, don't read creationist web sites. If you want to understand New Testament/early church scholarship, don't read Doherty.Paul's Christ was a spiritual intermediary that was known in the spirit. Mark wrote his gospel as a midrash to explain this deity. Paul quite clearly believed that Jesus had a physical, human existence -- in particular, that he was descended from David. Or take the brothers of Jesus. Paul refers to them several times, and talks about having met them. They were clearly important figures in the early church, and figures that Paul didn't get along with too well. He talks about them as Jesus' brothers, Mark talks about them as Jesus' (physical) brothers, and Josephus does the same. The obvious conclusion is that they were the brothers of Jesus.
Religion uses emotional rhetoric for it's appeal, and as we see in our advertising to this day, emotional rhetorical arguments are more powerful in impacting behaviour than fact based logic. Look how long it took to get people to change their minds about tabacco. And still people smoke! How much harder it will be to educate the believer about something as long standing as religion.
It's going to take an awfully long time if the one doing the educating knows less about the facts than the believer.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Do you accept all the Pauline Epistles and the Acts as the writings of one man, Paul?
No one thinks Acts was written by Paul (it was written by the same author as the gospel of Luke). Of the epistles attributed to Paul, Hebrews is obviously not Pauline, the pastorals (I & II Timothy, Titus)are unlikely to have been written by Paul, and Colossians and Ephesians are debatable (and debated). II Thessalonians is also disputed, but I don't remember how the evidence stacks up -- it isn't interesting enough to worry about. Romans, I&II Corinthians, I Thess and Galatians (and I think Philemon) are essentially undisputed.
Are you also saying that anyone who takes the position that the paucity and the debated genuineness of the few references to Jesus supports the idea that Jesus like many religious figures, Moses, Mithras, Osiris, etc. is a myth is a crackpot?
Most are simply ignorant. Yes, I'd classify the others as crackpots. Not in the foaming at the mouth sense, but in the sense that they have adopted a position for reasons other than the available evidence. In this sense, for example, Fred Hoyle held several crackpot ideas. That didn't keep him from being a brilliant and inventive scientific thinker.
Doherty, offers well supported if controversials arguments. I follow the discussion in the JesusMysteries group on Yahoo and the state of the record of early Christianity is so incomplete that many theories are generated to explain it. The early church offered the official version and by long authority that prevails but it doesn't seem based on logical or historical argument to me.
In order to support a mythicist position, however, you have to adopt highly strained readings of what very early material is available, including the synoptic gospels, Paul and Hebrews. In addition, the early church left records not only of their official version, but of their controversies with other positions. The shift from a nonphysical to a historical Jesus, taking place within a single Christian community, would have produced tremendous theological controversy, and yet we find no trace of that contoversy (except by highly strained readings of polemic directed against Docetists).
Thomas Paine was one of the early critics to point out that Mark and those that drew on him had failed at proving their claim that Jesus was fulfillment of prophecy.
That's a completely different kind of issue. Billions of people have lived and died without having fulfilled prophecies. In fact, the argument goes the other way: some of the gospel-writers' attempts to portray Jesus as fulfilling prophecies are quite strained, and suggest that they were trying to force a fit between the awkward facts known about Jesus (e.g. that he was from Nazareth) and the prophecies they were deploying. Creating a mythical figure to match prophecy is easy; getting a historical figure to do so is harder.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Care to reference one outside of the Bible?
The shorter reference in Josephus (the one about the death of James, which mentions in passing that he was the brother of Jesus) is probably not an interpolation.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
I've been away from the site for a long time and I'm not going to try to catch up on this thread, but I have seen a couple of recent replies.
Well, you know that calling him part of the 'crack pot' community, particularly when his evidence is so highly docuemented, and verifiable.
No, my claim that Doherty's views are crackpot is not ad hominem. An ad hominem argument would be that you should ignore his views because he's a bad person. If anything, my statement was an argument from authority: I was pointing out that his views are far outside the scholarly consensus at numerous points. You don't have to believe scholars, of course, but I did think it useful for people to know where Doherty stands in relation to them. (And it is an exaggeration to say that Doherty has a lot of educational credentials: as far as I know, he has only an undergraduate degree in a tangentially related field. Any scholar in the field has far better credentials.)
What you are doing is the logical fallacy known as 'ad homenin'. Earl Doghtery has a lot of educational credentials, and has clearly docuemented things. You might not agree with his conclusions, but he docuemented his items very well.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
1) Joesphus was writing 60 years after the alledged events
The event in question (the death of James) was in 62 CE, at which time Josephus was ~25 years old and living in Jerusalem.
2) The phrasology of the statement about james is EXACTLY the same as
The phrase used by Josephus is "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James". Where does that occur in the gospels? (Also, it's a bit difficult to suggest that Josephus copied the phrase from the gospels while also suggesting that the gospels weren't written until after Josephus' death.)
two of the gospels. The source, if Josephus wrote it or not, seems to have been the gospels. It is likely, due to the fact it is exactly the same as the christian text when refering to james, that it was a copier's gloss.
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sfs Member (Idle past 2563 days) Posts: 464 From: Cambridge, MA USA Joined: |
Actually, the phrase is 'James, the brother of the once called Christ (ton adelphon Iesou tou legomenou Christou) Compare that with Mathew 1:16 (ho legomenos Christos), This samephrase is in John 4:25. The full phrase is "ton adelphon Iesou tou legomenou Christou, Iakobos onoma autoi", which is exactly what I provided a translation for. This is not the way James is normally referred to in Christian texts (where is the kind of puffery that we see in the interpolated text in Josephus). "ho legomenos Christos" is not a distinctive Christian way of referring to Jesus -- in fact it's unusual in Christian texts -- but it is such a tiny fragment of vanilla Greek that it hardly means anything anyway. Josephus uses the identical construction elsewhere in the same work, e.g. Ant. 12, 125, "Antiochus... who by the Greeks was called The God", and Ant. 13, 370, "Lathyrus sent for his fourth brother Demetrius, who was call Eucerus".
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