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Author Topic:   Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 309 of 320 (144793)
09-26-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by mike the wiz
09-23-2004 2:10 PM


Re: Prove or disprove divine existence to me
mike the wiz writes:
quote:
Now; There is the fine-tuning of this universe. WHY!?!
Because you only think it is fine-tuned.
Where's that book...(*rummage*)...(*rummage*)...Ah! Here it is!
From the inside back cover of the Harper-Collins edition of The Fifth Elephant by Terry Pratchett:
Terry Pratchett lives in England, an island off the coast of France, where he spends his time writing Discworld novels in accordance with the Very Strong Anthropic Principle, which holds that the entire Purpose of the Universe is to make possible a being that will live in England, an island off the coast of France, and spend his time writing Discworld novels. Which is exactly what he does. Which proves the whole business true. Any questions?
That is the silliness you are espousing, mike. You are claiming that the entire universe exists simply to create you, specifically. If the universe exists soley to support life, why don't you go all the way and insist that the universe exists solely to support you? Every single life that came before, it was all just part of the plan to create you. Your parents didn't meet by chance. They were part of god's plan to create you. All those instances where they had sex and didn't conceive you were not just the way nature works but deliberate interference by god because it didn't result in you. And when god finally did decide to make you happen, it wasn't random happenstance that the specific sperm fertilized that egg. No, god was there specifically making it happen because the entire universe exists solely to have you in it and when you are gone, the purpose to the universe will cease to exist and god will snuff it out.
How selfish.
Think about it: If the universe were incapable of supporting your kind of life, do you really think your kind of life would exist in the universe? You have the attitude backwards. The universe is not fine-tuned for life. Instead, life is fine-tuned for the universe.
In our entire study of the physics, we have yet to find any possible way to change a fundamental constant. That's why they're called fundamental constants: They don't change.
Life, on the other hand, has proven itself to be truly protean in its ability to adapt to various conditions. Boiling hot? No problem. Freezing cold? Life is there, too. Underwater? Teeming with life. In the air? Can't get away from the life. High pressure, low pressure, aerobic, anaerobic, no matter what the environment here on earth, we seem to find life there.
Now you tell me: Which is the more likely scenario:
1) A system that has shown itself to be static and incapable of change adapted itself to a malleable product.
2) A malleable product that has shown itself to be amazingly adaptable to all scenarios adjusted itself to a static system.
Life changes. The universe doesn't.
What makes you think the universe adjusted itself to fit life?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by mike the wiz, posted 09-23-2004 2:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by mike the wiz, posted 09-26-2004 2:56 PM Rrhain has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 316 of 320 (144953)
09-26-2004 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by mike the wiz
09-26-2004 2:56 PM


Re: Prove or disprove divine existence to me
mike the wiz responds to me:
quote:
quote:
That is the silliness you are espousing, mike. You are claiming that the entire universe exists simply to create you, specifically.
Oh? Is that right?
Yes.
You are claiming that because we exist, the universe must have been deliberately designed to accommodate us. And if the universe was deliberately designed, then it must be that there is a god.
But you seem to be unwilling to go the final step: If the universe was designed to permit our specific form of life, why wasn't the universe designed to permit you, specifically?
There is no free will: The entire universe is specifically geared to put you, specifically, in the precise position you are in right here and now. These words you are reading? They're not my words. They're god's words. God is deliberately putting them into motion precisely so that you can see them.
quote:
So you see, it is not a selfish argument, but rather - the Universe is fine-tuned for us to live in
...which is a selfish argument.
How can it be otherwise? You're saying that the universe was designed to accommodate YOU. That is the epitome of selfishness.
quote:
there is time for things to happen in. Why? Why should there be? Why would there be?
You just answered your own question:
Why would there be?
You're assuming the thing you are trying to prove.
quote:
And so - by the will of God I am.
What a selfish attitude.
Why does god care that YOU exist? Won't any other human do just as well? There are more than six billion other people on this planet. What is so special about YOU?
quote:
Not by any intentions of men, but by the will of God.
Congratulations! You just got rid of free will. Your parents didn't fall in love from their own volition. They didn't decide to get married out of their own desire. They didn't have children from their own hopes and dreams.
God did it. God made them do it.
quote:
quote:
In our entire study of the physics,
What has this got to do with anything that God has made and said?
Didn't god make physics?
quote:
THIS is arrogance - thinking you can know more than what God knows
But god said we do. Who are you to contradict god?
quote:
call him sinful
But god admits to committing sin. Who are you to contradict god?
quote:
tell HIM why the Universe is.
Incorrect. I have never mentioned anything about why the universe is. I have simply said you have muffed it.
quote:
WHY would there be anything? Why should there be?
You just answered your own question.
You're assuming what you're trying to prove.
quote:
My conditional implication remains
Indeed. It remains just as false as it was when you first introduced it.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by mike the wiz, posted 09-26-2004 2:56 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 317 of 320 (144954)
09-26-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by mike the wiz
09-26-2004 3:23 PM


Re: Prove or disprove divine existence to me
mike the wiz writes:
quote:
Why couldn't everything happen at the same time if there is no God?
Because time doesn't work that way.
Why are you so insistent upon the chocolate sprinkles? If we have a complete, working model, why do you insist on adding something that doesn't actually affect anything but is there simply to make you feel better?
If things can work on their own, why do you need someone to make them work?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by mike the wiz, posted 09-26-2004 3:23 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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