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Author Topic:   Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1423 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 297 of 320 (144158)
09-23-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by mike the wiz
09-23-2004 2:10 PM


Is This Another Wacky Parody?
Mike the Wiz opines:
quote:
I can try and make a convincing case that there is "proof" for God. You see, to me, it's rather simple, we are here, so there is God.
To whom is this supposed to be convincing? Is that your warped concept of providing falsification criteria for your hypothesis? If we would only be able to conclude that your hypothesis is false if we weren't here at all, then obviously your case is based solely on wishful thinking.
quote:
There is the fine-tuning of this universe.
Sure, tell that to all the Martians and Venusians who were never born because conditions weren't fine-tuned for life there. Tell all the plants and animals who would have happily lived ten billions of years ago on this planet, but never got the chance because conditions weren't right for life then. Tell it to all the simnies and crimbaps and other wonderful things in the universe that can't exist under the present "fine-tuned" conditions.
quote:
Why do I think?
Why indeed.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by mike the wiz, posted 09-23-2004 2:10 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by mike the wiz, posted 09-23-2004 6:37 PM MrHambre has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1423 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 304 of 320 (144412)
09-24-2004 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by mike the wiz
09-23-2004 6:37 PM


Re: Is This Another Wacky Parody?
Mike,
I give you the words of Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith:
Faith is what credulity becomes when it achieves escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse.
In other words, you want to communicate in Mikespeak, regardless of the fact that no one else can speak the language. "Proof" and "logic" and "true" mean whatever you want them to mean. It's like playing chess with a four-year-old who thinks the rules don't matter.
You set up a deductive proof of God's existence that says If we exist, God exists. Since we exist, therefore God exists. I apologize if you can't or won't recognize that literally anything could be "proven" this way, but that's the fact of the matter. The reason I asked if you were still parodying yourself is because I can't imagine any other reason an adult would put such a concept into words.
The reason I ignored what you evidently consider the meat of your post is that it was so irrelevant. Asking why the universe exists or why phenomena have causes is not something a philosopher would waste a lot of time considering. Certain basic facts have to be taken as given (i.e. that the universe exists) before we can even begin to formulate a fruitful discussion. You merely tweaked the major premise of your original proof to read If time exists, then God exists, with similarly predictable (and unconvincing) results.
Lam's original challenge was for a believer to provide some objective evidence to back up his faith. Your question Why are we here? is not an answer to this challenge.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by mike the wiz, posted 09-23-2004 6:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by mike the wiz, posted 09-25-2004 2:09 PM MrHambre has replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1423 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 319 of 320 (145030)
09-27-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by mike the wiz
09-25-2004 2:09 PM


Re: Is This Another Wacky Parody?
Mike,
quote:
You must face the unavoidable fact that we exist, therefore God does. Indeed, anything evidences God, because of that bible quote I provided, written thousands of years ago under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
I don't have an issue with the assertion that we exist, Mike, but getting from there to God exists requires a bridge that isn't there. You might be a little out of your depth here, Mike, but that's no reason to get all flustered. Ontological proofs of God's existence aren't new or convincing. Sorry the rules of philosophy can't be scrapped to accomodate yours.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by mike the wiz, posted 09-25-2004 2:09 PM mike the wiz has not replied

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