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Author | Topic: EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jazzns Member (Idle past 3940 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
I am curious if you ever finished watching this?
I just "rented" *coughpiratebaycough* and watched this for myself to see the trainwrech and I noticed a curious thing towards the end. They actually sort of let Dawkins talk and finish his sentences and he really isn't saying anything all that controversial. That is unless you are both hyper-sensitive and religious. It made me think that is really what this film was all about. Trying to increase support from a bench of people of faith who haven't been rallied to the cause of ID because it hasn't hit home for them. The take home message from Dawkin and PZ for a low-information viewer who is also one of the faithful is that this whole thing is an attack on their belief. They especially seemed to emphasize PZ when he talked about how religion should just be, "something you do on the weekend for fun." ( he really didn't do himself any favors in this one ) This was a movie designed to shore up the base. Thats all. And in that right I think it was quite effective. If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
No, I haven't gotten back to it yet, don't know if I will, at least not soon. Going into the holiday season my free time is getting more and more sparse.
I agree with your portrayal of the film as trying to recruit the already faithful to the creationist cause. --Percy
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4257 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
I saw the movie when it was at theaters, with a friend from this site, who introduced me to this site. If you want to see this movie in a humourous light, watch it with an intoxicated hardcore evolutionist. I wont give his name as we hold many different views and he may wish to remain anonymous on here. I just remeber him shouting "Lies!" and "Bullshit!" over and over agin in the theater, it was really funny.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4218 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
I saw the movie when it was at theaters, with a friend from this site, who introduced me to this site. If you want to see this movie in a humourous light, watch it with an intoxicated hardcore evolutionist. I wont give his name as we hold many different views and he may wish to remain anonymous on here. I just remeber him shouting "Lies!" and "Bullshit!" over and over agin in the theater, it was really funny. Why would someone being truthful be funny since the movie is lies & bullshit. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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I first posted this elsewhere, having lost track that this topic existed.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/...008/12/win_ben_steins_mind.html Found via Panda's Thumb, which in turn found it via Bad Astronomy. A choice bit, which was quoted by "Panda's Thumb":
quote: That and the rest of Ebert's comments are probably everything you'll ever need to rebut any claims that it is a quality film. Moose Edited by Minnemooseus, : Got spastic and clicked "Submit Now" when I meant to click "Preview".
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
A local church is putting on a free showing tonight. Last week the local weekly paper printed an article which was basically a reprint of a press release based on the review of the movie in answersingenesis.com.
The whole article sounded like a press release from the the Discovery Institute. We all know what a pack of liars they are. I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the lies, fallacies and half truths. It should be published today. This is a small town so it should get some responses. I doubt many if any will be in support of my view, but I couldn't just let nothing be said.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Theodoric writes: I wrote a letter to the editor pointing out the lies, fallacies and half truths. It should be published today. This is a small town so it should get some responses. I doubt many if any will be in support of my view, but I couldn't just let nothing be said. May God have mercy on Cumberland That is, any God who exists and thinks honesty is actually a good thing. *sigh* Such thoughts used to be taken for granted. It's kinda sad that one needs to clarify God to be "one who holds honesty as a priority". Um... in other words... good luck
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Well they published my letter. Now to get the feedback or more likely the backlash. We are fairly new in the area, so I don't think many people are familiar with my religious, political and social views. My wife has a rather prominent position in town so I was a little concerned about a letter to the editor. She was quite supportive in me writing the letter. Since we have different last names she might not get much feedback, except from people that know us personally.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Well an Ider (actually it seems a YEC) responded to my letter to the paper.
If your interested I posted my letter, the news article, flyer and the response on my blog. Lots of fallacies and distortions in the response. Blog not found
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2878 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
I don't think 'Expelled' presents any threat to science. Even as 'criticism' from the YEC camp seemingly would pose a threat, what they both in reality do is bring the issues into the public eye. It may be 'bad' PR but it is PR nonetheless. Someone will be made to think about the topic who would otherwise be content to engage in other pursuits and remain oblivious to it all. When any sort of cursory search is done into the matter the reality of which side has any merit becomes apparent rather quickly with todays' high speed information via the net. Those engaged in such efforts essentially end up shooting themselves in the foot.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I don't think 'Expelled' presents any threat to science. Even as 'criticism' from the YEC camp seemingly would pose a threat, what they both in reality do is bring the issues into the public eye. It may be 'bad' PR but it is PR nonetheless. Someone will be made to think about the topic who would otherwise be content to engage in other pursuits and remain oblivious to it all. When any sort of cursory search is done into the matter the reality of which side has any merit becomes apparent rather quickly with todays' high speed information via the net. Those engaged in such efforts essentially end up shooting themselves in the foot.
The majority of the population doesn't think, or can't think, having not been given the tools to do so in school. The nonsense that the creationists are pushing is designed to sound good, as all good propaganda must: "they're both theories," "teach the controversy," "critical thinking," the latest "Academic Freedom Act," and all the rest. It is in reality an effort to force their narrow fundamentalist beliefs into the school systems. Expelled is just another effort in the same direction. The propaganda techniques used in that film would make Goebbels proud. Those of use who are scientists realize that the creationist arguments don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, but most folks out there aren't as critical. Creation "science" and its illegitimate stepchild, Intelligent Design, are "designed" to sneak religion back into schools, from which they were banned by the U.S. Supreme Court decades ago. Neither of these endeavors has any relation to science--they are in fact diametrically opposed to science. And if they get their way they will destroy science and impose a theocracy; as the Wedge Document phrased it, "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." There is no way to impose that fundamentalist dogma on science except through a theocracy. Thanks, but no thanks. We finished with the Dark Ages a few centuries ago, and after The Enlightenment we no longer have to kowtow to the various shamans and their particular gods and demons. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2878 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Hi Coyote,
Let me clarify my statement. Expelled and the creation research institute are a threat to science in the sense of what they propose to be scientific. They are not however because they have no case to support their arguments. What struck me about the movie (it reached red box, I was bored) was how small this group is. Several minutes in the movie were taken to show how difficult it was for Ben Stein to locate the office. Once inside we see a couple of secretaries and one or two significant players.
as the Wedge Document phrased it, "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."
Yes they dream big don't they? But who believes their nonsense? Those who already reside in their camp of thought. I have not met anyone yet who became a YEC based on their arguments, only people who were already YECS grasping at the straws offered them. And I have met many more who have rejected the YEC view as a result of looking into the debate. The evidence now is just too overwhelming to deny evolution and the means to access it via the internet too easy. Some of the youtube presentations are literally being attacked in a manner to prevent them from being seen at all. I'm not suggesting to ignore the fight by any means. I'm saying that there doesn't seem to be any reason to worry about the outcome of the fight. I just took a look at BS's expelled website. The only threats there were the "academic freedom petition" and an opportunity to purchase a limited edition Ben Stein bobble head..
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
What struck me about the movie (it reached red box, I was bored) was how small this group is. Several minutes in the movie were taken to show how difficult it was for Ben Stein to locate the office. Once inside we see a couple of secretaries and one or two significant players. Was there any mention of the budget of this small group? The last time I heard any info on this it turned out that their budget was like ten times that of the NCSE. Some of the significant players were pulling in way more than I make in a year to compose a single document.
Yes they dream big don't they? But who believes their nonsense? Those who already reside in their camp of thought. I have not met anyone yet who became a YEC based on their arguments, only people who were already YECS grasping at the straws offered them. I have met a few people that parroted 'Teach the controversy' and that ID sounds perfectly reasonable to them. ID is only the narrow end of their proposed wedge. Whether their wedge will work is an interesting question.
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shalamabobbi Member (Idle past 2878 days) Posts: 397 Joined: |
Was there any mention of the budget of this small group? The last time I heard any info on this it turned out that their budget was like ten times that of the NCSE. Some of the significant players were pulling in way more than I make in a year to compose a single document. The NCSE is a non-profit organisation.The 4000 members are scientists, teachers, clergy, and citizens with diverse religious affiliations. This work is supported primarily by membership contributions, with some additional assistance from grants. I found a figure of $670K for 2003. From the ICR site:
quote: I have met a few people that parroted 'Teach the controversy' and that ID sounds perfectly reasonable to them.
Probably because they are already in a YEC mindset or they haven't thought it out very deeply yet to realise the implications. There is nothing to learn after all from ID 'science'. A few cherry picked arguments sound convincing until it all has to be harmonized as a whole with the rest of the known facts. Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given. Edited by AdminModulous, : Erm, no idea what happened there. I was trying to edit my post, but then the system crashed. I came back and it had edited this post and refused to let me log back in. Sorry about that.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
The NCSE is a non-profit organisation. The 4000 members are scientists, teachers, clergy, and citizens with diverse religious affiliations. This work is supported primarily by membership contributions, with some additional assistance from grants. I found a figure of $670K for 2003. Sounds about right right.
From the ICR site: ICR is Creation Research. Stein was looking for the Discovery Institute (I know, it is difficult to keep them straight sometimes) According to "Baptist Press":
quote: According to Charity navigator dot org:
quote: I haven't seen Expelled - did they mention this at all?
Probably because they are already in a YEC mindset or they haven't thought it out very deeply yet to realise the implications. There is nothing to learn after all from ID 'science'. A few cherry picked arguments sound convincing until it all has to be harmonized as a whole with the rest of the known facts. Definitely not YEC, more the latter. And that's precisely the the methodology for Wedge. Get people to accept something without thinking of its consequences, and start slippery sloping gradually towards their ends...hoping at each stage to get the next small step through people not thinking deeply about the implications. Incidentally: the ICR on charity navigator has:
quote: Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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