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Author
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Topic: Bible Question: What was the First Sin?
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 119 of 312 (391115)
03-23-2007 3:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 115 by ariel
03-23-2007 12:02 AM
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Hi Ariel
We know from other parts of the bible that the fall is when sin came into the world and that the fall is considered to be when Eve ate the fruit. Some people might claim that but it is simply not true. Sin was a part of the world from the very beginning.
As well, the author of Genesis,(Moses), may have not felt the necessity of adding those little words as it is fairly obvious that the fall into sin is in direct relation to Eve's disobedience to God. Except of course, that Moshe probably didn't write any of the bible.
As well, all scripture is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be wrong or contradict itself. Well, I happen to think that the Bible, which is just part of scripture like Huck Finn and Moby Dick, were inspired by GOD, but the Bible certainly does contradict itself. It may well have been inspired but it was written by just plain people, then edited by others, redacted by still more, compiled and rewritten yet again. All one needs to do is to read the first two books, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are mutually exclusive. If one is literally true, then the other is false. But none of that is related to the topic of this thread. The question is, can a beast sin? Is it possible for an earth worm to sin? That is a key question. Until after Adam and Eve had eaten from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they had no way of knowing that they should obey God. They were incapable of sinning.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by ariel, posted 03-23-2007 12:02 AM | | ariel has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Paul is still way off topic.
And even if Paul were on topic, it is perfectly reasonable to look and see if his words can be supported. Often they cannot. Why should Adam and Eve know they should listen to one authority figure over another or even what obey meant?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Paul is still way off topic.
The serpent never stated himself as an authority figure. And neither did God. Come on.
and even if you don't know the definition of the word OBEY, it's still clear that when you're told NOT to do something, don't do it. God was the only one handing out orders, the serpent merely deceived eve. I'm sorry but that is even funnier. They don't know right from wrong or what obey means but they know that they should obey God? God was the only one handing out orders? The serpent merely deceived? If they do not yet know good from evil, right from wrong, how are they supposed to make such choices?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 167 of 312 (395926)
04-18-2007 12:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by Juraikken
04-15-2007 7:51 PM
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Did Adam or Eve sin?
You actually touch on the heart of the matter in your post, but then seem to just slide on past as though you didn't think about what you wrote. You said:
We grow our minds by experience, Adam and Eve didnt have any experience so they didnt know right from wrong, but now they do. Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong. Again, Adam & Eve did not know right from wrong. Until AFTER they had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, they were not capable of knowing what was the right thing to do. Like children, they could not know that they should obey the word of one authority figure over another. It is only afterwards that they were capable of sin.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by Juraikken, posted 04-15-2007 7:51 PM | | Juraikken has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 169 of 312 (396230)
04-19-2007 10:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 168 by Juraikken
04-19-2007 5:22 AM
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Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
1. God did not lie when he said "you will surely die", Adam and eve DID die. Of course God lied and sinned doing that. If the story really happened then God was guilty of a Sin of Omission, for failing to fully disclose the terms of the contract.
2. God did not tempt them to eat of the tree, SATAN did. Irrelevant and immaterial. Before acquiring the knowledge of good and evil Adam & Eve had no capability to resist temptation. If there is a Sin here it is God's for Product Liability. Also Satan is not mentioned in the GOE story.
3. God allowed sin to get through, not MADE sin get through becuase he was perfectly capable to stop that serpent but he didnt for a reason Sorry, but just because a killer has a reason for his actions does not make him innocent. As you said, "God allowed sin to get through ..." so if the story is true and as you describe, it is God that sinned.
4. God planted free thought into Lucifer in heaven, and Lucifer CHOSE the evil ways and that began this world, if Lucifer never had that evil thought, Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden of Eden. Again, absolutely no support for that assertion in the Bible. In fact, the Bible actually presents a different picture of Lucifer, one where Lucifer only does God's will. A good example is the fable of Job. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by Juraikken, posted 04-19-2007 5:22 AM | | Juraikken has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 173 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:24 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 174 of 312 (397778)
04-27-2007 5:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 173 by Garrett
04-27-2007 5:24 PM
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Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
It's like saying you're child doesn't have the ability to listen to your instruction until he is old enough to understand the subject matter of the instruction. A child doesn't.
If I tell my child not to hurt other children, it doesn't matter if he/she understands why...he/she is perfectly capable of listening nonetheless. Your child has the gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil thanks to Adam and Eve, but even then, until the child is old enough to really understand what "Don't hurt" means they are incapable of obeying. But before eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve were less than even the youngest child. They were just animals. They were incapable of sin.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 173 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:24 PM | | Garrett has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 176 of 312 (403655)
06-04-2007 5:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 175 by herrmann
06-04-2007 4:50 PM
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Re: Did Adam or Eve sin?
Simply disobeying god is sin enough. Man and Women did know what God meant and even restated the command to the serpent. Thus by having this knowledge, though tempted by satan, they still sinned. Simply asserting stuff is not enough unless you can make a reasonable and logical supporting argument. Satan is not even mentioned in the Genesis GOE story.
Also, bearing false witness was not givin until the 10 commandments were givin. The 10 commandments are not expos facto. Also, it is neither of a false witness nor false testimony as false testimony is defined as "FALSE TESTIMONY - Testimony is "false" if it was untrue when it was given and was then known to be untrue by the witness or person giving it. A statement contained within a document is false if it was untrue when used and was then known to be untrue by the person using it." by lectlaw.com. Huh?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 175 by herrmann, posted 06-04-2007 4:50 PM | | herrmann has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Sin, in and of itself, is knowingly going against the will of somebody else (but in retrospect, God), which is what Eve did against God when she ate the fruit (she knew not to, but did it anyways, regardless of what was told to her by the serpent). How is that possible? Do any of you folk actually read the Bible Fables? It was called the "Tree of Knowledge of good and evil." Until Eve ate from the tree, how could she know not to? Edited by jar, : appalin spallin
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Yes, like a parrot she could repeat the instructions. Babies can often repeat instructions, but until they can learn right from wrong, they also cannot be held responsible for misbehaving. But until after she ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, she had no way to make any judgments about what is right and wrong. You can pretend if you want that Eve sinned or that there is some Original Sin, but the actual tale simply doesn't back you up.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
Lots of fiction there, but it has nothing to do with what the actual fable says. The GOE story is pretty clear, the fruit was the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Until the characters in the story eat the fruit there is no way they could know that disobedience was wrong. The rest of your fiction simply diminishes God even more. In the Garden of Eden story there is just no indication of any original sin, of any sin actually. If you want to find some "First Sin" you really need to either move outside the Western Canon and include stuff like 1 st. Adam & Eve, or move on to Cain and Abel. If you go to that as the "Original Sin" then there is no general sin at could be passed down to all mankind. The concept of a Fall or Original Sin just doesn't seem to be supportable using the Bible accepted in the Western Canon.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Symbolic Beliefs and the Reality of God
LOL I base it on what is actually in the Bible. The FACTs is that it is called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that until they ate from the tree they had no way to know right from wrong. Your quotations from the New Testament also simply do not stand up to testing. When you follow the allegations back to the Genesis Garden of Eden story, there is no Fall, no Original Sin.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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supports my point
Gen 3:11 11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" NIV Did you miss this? I posted this before, too! By the way, if you're told not to, and you do, its going against what you were told. Once again, read! Jar, i hope you read that. They could easily know not to eat the fruit, GOD SAID IT TWICE. Before and after! That simply supports the point. They knew they were naked. God is surprised that they know they are naked, and that tells God that they NOW knew right from wrong. This simply reinforces the point that until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge they had no way to know that they should or should not obey God. It really is that simple.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: supports my point
If you're told not to do something, DON'T DO IT! you don't need to "know" anything. My parents told me not to touch the burner when i was 3 years old, i listened. I didn't need to "know" anything else (i didn't need to know it was hot, or that i would hurt). Call it what you will, it's obedience vs. disobedience. But if you tell a three year old not to do something, and they forget and do it, you do not punish them. You comfort them because they are simply too young to know right from wrong. Adam and Eve in the fable are not even at three year old level. They simply did NOT know right from wrong. To support YOUR position you need to show how they could know right from wrong before they ate the fruit that taught them right from wrong. Good luck.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: supports my point
and to support YOUR position, you need to give me SCRIPTURE that says adam and eve didn't know better and that they didn't commit the first sin. The scripture is that the tree was called the Knowledge of Good and Evil. I need no more than that and reason and logic. If you don't know right from wrong you don't know you should obey. Sorry, but thems the facts.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Why do you insist on making God look stupid?
Do you think that Adam and Eve were immortal when they were created? Frankly, yes. That is the way that God created them, perfect. First, there is nothing in the story that says God created them perfect and second, that makes God either a fool and a liar. If they were immortal then God was a fool for creating the Tree of Life and for fearing that they would later eat from it and become immortal. If you continue to portray God as a fool and a liar, how do you expect to attract anyone to the faith?
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