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Author | Topic: Atheists can't hold office in the USA? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ooh-child writes: Let sleeping dogs lie. Absolutely agree. My question though is 'are they sleeping?' Is that one example given unique or is the law actually in use, however inefectuallyJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Taq writes: You have no standing until the state does punish you. People wanting to violate your rights is not a violation of your rights. They have to actually do it. Our constitution is not about the Thought Police. Sure, but that is not what I'm trying to say. It's a point about the norm making role of laws. If an unlawful law is kept on the state books and used occasionally - although ineffectually, the state is signalling to its citizens that although it's been overruled, it still believes its law is legitimate. That's quite a strong signal to the populous and to an atheist applicant. Of course, if the law is truly defunct and never even thought about, then the above doesn't apply.
I am unaware of anyone in recent history being forced out of public office or an election for being an atheist. People saying that you are unfit for office does not violate any constitutional rights.
Again, that's not the point - we all agree that the law could not stand. But it does seem that in at least one case, the law was attempted to be used. I'll try to find out the circumstances of that case.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ok, here's the story of the atheist that got elected in Carolina (that's amazing) and the subsequent hooha.
ASHEVILLE North Carolina's constitution is clear: politicians who deny the existence of God are barred from holding office. Opponents of Cecil Bothwell are seizing on that law to argue he should not be seated as a City Council member today, even though federal courts have ruled religious tests for public office are unlawful under the U.S. Constitution. Voters elected the writer and builder to the council last month. I'm not saying that Cecil Bothwell is not a good man, but if he's an atheist, he's not eligible to serve in public office, according to the state constitution, said H.K. Edgerton, a former Asheville NAACP president. Dunno what happened next, I expect he took up the role and left the wing nuts to wail. The Asheville Citizen Times ABE. There's a very thorough article here on it and the general principle here: Alternet.org - 404 Not Found Bothwell was threatened with legal action but it never happened. He seems like an interesting bloke.
"North Carolina's provision is a dead letter, and I am confident that any attempt to apply it would be quickly shot down by the courts," Ayesha N. Khan, AU legal director said. "These provisions are bigoted anachronisms, and our nation is a better place for having abandoned them." Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Do you see yourself representing basic human rights Not representing them, no, just talking about them.
or do you feel victimized as an atheist? Not remotely. Nobody gives a hoot in the UK. It never comes up in day to day conversation. I suspect I'd feel differently in the US - in fact I know I would. I was asked which church I attended in Colarado by a friend of a friend that I'd just met. It was as casual a comment as asking what you do for a living. That kind of assumption on meeting a stranger would never, ever happen in the UK. I said I was an atheist and the friend of friend reacted as though I'd pointed a gun in her face. Never saw her again. Luckily. Your question might be better addressed to an American atheist. Perhaps one living in Mississippi - if such an item exists.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Taq writes: That's because you kicked out all of the religious nutters from your country and sent them to us. Only the ones that for some reason just wouldn't burn.... Sorry.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Taq writes: The law wasn't used, and the anti-atheist laws have not been used in recent memory. Sure, there is some anti-atheist sabre rattling, but that is not unconstitutional. I agree. But it is the case that the guy from NAACP (who I also had to look up, is indeed a nutter) was able to wave the law about. We're not talking about a right to kill Welshmen with a bow and arrow here. But, I accept that the laws are defunct and are unlikely to be a real problem. Still, I'd like them to be repealed if I lived in one of those states - just to show that they care (but of course they don't).Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
And therefore both atheists and agnostics disbelieve in God. QED
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Theo writes: No an agnostic theist believes in a god, they just understand that they do not know there is a god.An agnostic atheist does not believe in a god, but they admit they do not know there is a god. Exactly. The first believes in god and is therefore a theist and the second doesn't and is therefore an atheist. As neither has the knowledge of the existence or non-existence of a god, it can be removed from both sides of the equation without changing the outcome. In reality, there is no such thing as agnostic.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Nope, nope ;-)
See message 79.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Any self respecting atheist will say that they do not believe that there is a god but add that that there is insufficient information to totally exclude the possibility.
The only real difference between that position and someone calling themselves an agnostic is the degree of doubt expressed. The answer by both the atheist and the agnostic to Q2 is therefore "I don't know." Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Theo writes: I agree but there are many non-self respecting atheists and theists out there. Because you do not agree they can not exist? I'm saying that agnostics don't exist. They either believe in a god or they don't. "End of" as the kids say. If they don't know whether they believe in God or not, they don't believe in god. The rest is semantics. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Wise writes: Demonstrably wrong. I shaved this morning, so I looked at myself in the mirror. In doing so, I verified that I do still exist. Sorry, you cannot redefine me out of existence. I just checked with my mirror and I too exist. I don't know whether god exists or not but believe that it/he/she/they doesn't/don't. I am therefore an atheist. I do not believe in any god(s).
Theo writes:
ditto above. I exist therefore agnostics exist. Agnostics do not exist - they seem desperately to want to avoid admitting it, but by definition they can not. atheistˈeɪθɪɪst noun a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
AZPaul writes: Sure we do. Just ask me. I'll tell you. Theist-Atheist is rather binary as one believes or one doesn't. The strength of knowledge behind those beliefs (agnosticism) is a separate scale. "I am certain" thru "I'm thinking this is probably right" thru "I'm thinking this is probably wrong" to "No way in hell is this right." For me: I am atheist and the strength of that belief is almost certain there is no way in hell the supernatural exists. Others may be more or less certain whether a supernatural whatever exists. Somewhere along that scale of knowing one recognizes that their assessment of their knowledge is closer to theist than atheist and will thus identify themselves as such. I would argue that everyone is agnostic to some degree or other and that how far you think you are from the extreme ends of that "Gnosis" scale lets you define whether you are theist/atheist. I are hard-nosed atheist ... but acknowledge that further information may change that. Thus I am very close to one extreme end of the gnosis scale but not at the end. Then, again, I'm also hard-nosed, almost but not quite extreme, in "knowing" there is no way in hell any new information is going to come along. Sure, you're just saying what the others are saying and I obviously agree that there is a personal scale of uncertainty about whether a god exists or not. Not my point. My point is definitionally simple. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. A theist is someone who does believe in god. There is no room in the middle for 'I don't know'. If you do not know whether you believe in god, then you do not believe in god. As mod said earlier, if you ask a different question than 'do you believe in god?' such as 'does god exist?' you may get a graded answer in reply. But that ain't about belief in a god. As has been said, then confused, that question is to do with knowledge not belief. But as there is no actual knowledge of God or gods, it's irrelevant - the matter is one of pure belief. THEISM. : Belief in the existence of a god or godsATHEISM. : Denial of metaphysical beliefs in God or divine beings. Here's a question. Is it possible to think, on say, the balance of probabilities, that a god does exist but still not believe in him/her/it? I'd say yes. Because belief is not rational. The point being that even though I can't be certain that a god doesn't exist (rational) I still believe that he/her/it doesn't (irrational). Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: You mean this begging the question logical fallacy? Nope. Put your fallacy handbook back on the shelf.
Where you remove the agnostic position from consideration and then claim it does not exist? I remove the agnostic position because it does not follow from the argument. If you ask a differenet question to the one posed, you may have a point.
It's not black and white.
The answer to the question 'do you believe in god" returns only three responses, 'yes', 'no', 'don't know'. Because belief is binary, a 'don't know' response is 'no'. The 'i don't know reply' is a lack of belief. Now, of course, if you ask a different question about the likelyhood of the existence of a god, you'll get a probalistic answer from some people. Particularly those who don't actually believe in a god but aren't used to using that sort of language.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Theo writes: Ergo, you are an agnostic atheist by definition.One is knowledge the other belief. I'm just an atheist. I do not believe in god(s). No one has knowledge of god, we only know whether we belief in god or not. The term agnostic is therefore redundant and misleading.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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