Abortion questions...?

If someone was irresponsible at simply buying condoms and having unprotected sex, why on earth would you want such a person to care for a child?It's like you're saying, "Hey, you're an idiot who's still living life carelessly without concerns for yourself or others, how 'bout you take care of this tiny, helpless baby. Good luck."Wonder why there's so much crime, poverty, drug abuse, homelessness, poorly educated people who can't get jobs and are a burden on the rest of us? Idiots are continously having kids, neglecting them and going about their lives over populating society with less-than-average individuals.If we can't stop ourselves from having sex (which we are not) then, IMO, they should at least moderately control the amount of births per year by promoting abortion as a logical option, especially to teenagers in high school, and most importantly, to college students. We don't need this many people...we really don't.- Oni

True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level. And only within the US borders. They want laws set up to only control the choices of Americans. If you're from another country, no one cares what happens to your kid, fetus, or sperm cells. Esp. if you're skin is dark. The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics

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In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"

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Every year 15 million children die of hunger

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For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years

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Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days!

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The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.

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One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture

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The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. Hunger in Global Economy

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Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. UNICEF

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3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.

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In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.

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In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.

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The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.

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One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.

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Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.

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In 1997 alone, the lives of at least 300,000 young children were saved by vitamin A supplementation programmes in developing countries.

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Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death

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About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age

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To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.

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The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.

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Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger

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It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.

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Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year. These are living human beings that can barely survive, why continue to flood the earth with more unwanted humans under these conditions?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

So would you call that method of birth control a homicidal method? It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy?From a more religious perspective, if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Wouldn't destroying sperm and eggs be the same a destroying half a human soul every single time?How many half-human souls have been lost during the course of the average male's life? Or female's life?I'm just trying to find some consistency here.- Oni

We are not talking about aborting a fetus. We're not at that stage of development yet in this discussion.At the stage we were discussing, a sperm cell and a zygote are practically the same thing, just a combination of two haploids.We're talking about not caring at all if we destroy a haploid cell(sperm) but caring beyond reasonable conversation for destroying a diploid cell(zygote).Is there really a difference?- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

You just blew my fucking mind! - Oni

Here

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CDC Abortion Surveillance---United States

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Description of System: For each year since 1969, CDC has compiled abortion data by state or area of occurrence. Information is requested each year from all 50 states, New York City, and the District of Columbia. For 2005, data were received from 49 reporting areas: New York City, District of Columbia, and all states except California, Louisiana, and New Hampshire. For the purpose of trends analysis, data were evaluated from the 46 reporting areas that have been consistently reported since 1995.

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Results: A total of 820,151 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC for 2005 from 49 reporting areas, the abortion ratio (number of abortions per 1,000 live births) was 233, and the abortion rate was 15 per 1,000 women aged 15--44 years. For the 46 reporting areas that have consistently reported since 1995, the abortion rate declined during 1995--2000 but has remained unchanged since 2000.

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Where did you get your numbers from? Pretty sad, right? What was your point here? Hardly...- Oni

I was only trying to keep AE consistent in his thinking. If a haploid is ok to destroy with zero reservations, shouldn't a zygote be destroyed with zero reservations? It's literally the same thing.AE said he felt destroying a zygote was homicide, so I asked if he felt destroying a haploid was too since they are the same thing. He said "no," and that made very little sense to me. That's fine, put the line somewhere, but to me it seemed silly to put the line between two haploids and a zygote, when it is exactly the same thing. At least there, the line should not be. We can argue where it should be from that point forward, but it makes no sense to put it where AE had it.- Oni

But shouldn't they then be able to explain exactly when the soul enters the situation?Ringo was more specific a few posts above, so maybe you cold help us understand when exactly does the soul come into play - do the sperm and egg have half each? What happens for twins? Is it when the zygote is formed that God implants it? Embryo? Fetus? When it is actually born? During whatever religious ritual that takes place after birth? (ie. a baptism, etc.)If there was an exact time when it does happen, it would help to know that. Anything before would be an acceptable time to terminate, and everything after could be off limits.- Oni

Then they are wrong. Also, please provide the link, as I did.In any case, the CDC trumps whatever is said on AGI since they are the official government entity that works specifically to gather the numbers. Yes, so then ask yourself at that point, how on earth could AGI have those extra numbers if they weren't reported to the CDC? That's a load of crap. Perhaps they're just making crap up? Well if you followed my point, it was concerning people in the US that want to control only abortions in the US. But, have no concern for anyone else outside of our borders. So they aren't PRO-LIFE, they are hypocrites who are only pro-control of US citizens.My point was also to show that there should be a greater global concern for living human beings who are dying of starvation and malnutrition, who's numbers (both children and adult combined) reach the billions, rather than being concerned with 820,000 abortions that are done legally and by choice.No one is making the choice to die of starvation or malnutrition, those people need help -vs- an adult who makes an actual legal choice concerning their own body. And yet pro-life people are only concerned in controlling the 820,000 that take place in the US. You're all a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites.There are more people starving to death in Africa alone than abortions in the US. If you are really pro-life, then you should be pro-ALL life. Also, think about what the global starvation numbers are - why should we continue to add more unwanted human beings to that number? And they are, because your only concern is with the 820,000 that take place in the US. Yet you show no concern in the media for those living human beings globally that die each year from simply not having something to eat.Your priorities are ridiculous and you should be ashamed. Yes, now to that add the adults that die each year. No it is not, it is a stupid argument because life never stops existing.Maybe you can take up the question of when the soul arrives - do the sperm and egg(haploids) have half each? Does it form when they unite to form a zygote? Further down the line when it becomes an embryo? A fetus? At birth? When exactly?Some say conception. Ok, but if it's when the zygote forms, then all you have is two haploids that are sperm and egg, so the destruction of the sperm and egg would also be viewed as bad...but it is not. So where is the consistency here?There is no consistency from your side of the argument. But hopefully, as easy as you understood complex physics and cosmology without ever taking any courses in it, you can figure this out for us. It should be very easy for a man of your genius.
- Oni

Well, yeah... If they are claiming there is a soul, but that condoms are ok, it seems inconsistent if they can't specifically explain when, during the reproduction process, the soul comes into play. How do they know sperm cells or eggs don't have a soul? Maybe they do and they're advocating the killing of a soul by supporting birth control. Which is where it gets complicated. If the soul begins at the union of two haploids, then you'd have to believe that half of the soul is in the sperm cell and the egg. At which point, soul's are being destroyed through birth control methods.To stay consistent you would have to oppose both. Chris Angel does it!- Oni

This is only prevative maintenance. What would really need to happen is support for the single mothers AFTER the child is born. This is when they need it most, and this is exactly the time when those who are pro-life stop caring or showing any effort in trying to help.Just look at this site and the arguments presented when it comes to welfare, free healthcare, free schooling, help with housing, employment, etc. No one gives a shit, that's truth. Everyone wants to be self-righteous and act concerned for a fetus, until that fetus is born to a single mom, living in poverty, without a job and no education. At which point, everyone who cared turns their back, including the government.So what's a single mom to do at that point? When everyone could careless. You remember very incorrectly, as the Pope always was against birth control methods, including condoms, and actually increased the spread of HIV/AIDS in sub-saharan Africa. He has now softened up a bit after so many complained about his anti-condom rhetoric.- Oni

You'd be shocked to find out that in the US it is not. Source

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Although published surveys report 68% to 75% of adults have supported distributing condoms in schools (Fanburg, Kaplan, & Naylor, 1995), more than half of students in the United States are being taught abstinence-only curricula.

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Twenty-one of the fifty states have school districts which provide condom availability programs.

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This debate includes many parents taking on the school system to get rid of condom availability in their children’s schools, citing such reasons as their fundamental right to remain free from governmental interference with their child rearing, their rights to familial privacy, parental liberty, and religious freedom.

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More than half teach abstinance only, only 21 states have condoms in the schools for availability, and the on going debate in those schools from the parents is to get rid of them. So no, there is no real focus on condoms. You are trying to subdue natural, biological effects of puberty...that is to be laughed at. But that doesn't help us here in the US. And I'm sure Canada would hate if we sent them all of our single moms. Yeah, but you could care less about the child once it is born. It's ok to admit that, I openly admit it too. I don't care about other people's children to the point of wanting to involve myself in their lives to help them, no one does.Like with Haiti. Sure, I sent money after the earthquake, we all did. But no one ever gave a shit about Haiti a week before the earthquake, when they REALLY needed the money to build a normal society that wouldn't fall apart during a quake.How much did you send to Haiti before the earthquake? Zero. Sure, we can all get on our self-righteous high horse and show concern for Haiti after the quake, when it was trendy to do so. But if someone came to me/you/anyone 5 years ago asking for money to build an infrastructure in Haiti, we would have told them to fuck off. As we do for every other country.Some honesty, at least, and consistency, please, because we are all, for the most part, centered around our own lives. We are only concerned superficially.- OniEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

If it happened today, right in front of you, would you assume supernatural forces, or would you do science to try and figure it out? I'm just tryin' to do some sciencin' here, dude. These are claimed as fact, by those who believe it. So some proof might be nice, they would vote against it for christ sake. Cool, I agree. Or there could be no soul at all; we just don't know. There is no evidence in either case and that was the point I was trying to make.More to the point though, it is evidencially not murder or immoral to destroy a daploid cell any more than it would be murder or immoral to destroy a haploid cell when you masterbate, or pull out, or have a wet dream. Which, as you see, many here claimed the former is murder and immoral but not the latter, when they are literally the same thing.- Oni

But as you can see by the evidence, "directing" your sexual pulsions is not something the majority of humans can do.Behavior -vs- genetics: genetics always wins. Fair enough, I'll take your word for it, but this is not the norm. The norm is to allow Haiti to become what Haiti was and is currently today. Along with Haiti, many other countries suffer the same conditions, and very little concern is ever given. Because, we just can't. There is a reality that somethings are just not do-able.Given these conditions throughout the world, why bring unwanted children, or children that can't be taken care of, financially or otherwise, to this planet? We are all selfish, some just pretend not to be to please the sky daddy. But I wonder if you didn't believe he was up there, would you still behave the same?- Oni

I know, I was just jokingly trying to bring up old points that dragged on in the supernatural threads. I failed. Perhaps, I wouldn't say it's completely pointless in all cases. If someone makes a claim like, "A zygote has a soul," it's only fair that I'm allowed to probe that claim a bit. Especially if someone is using it as their reason for not supporting 1st trimester abortions.But I get what you mean. True, but then why even suggest a soul if there is no way to pinpoint it, or even, when conception takes place?It shouldn't even come up in the discussion of when it is and when it is not safe to abort. The best way to approach that, would be to go with the concensus from the medical community. That way no one probes into the soul issue and there is no need to require evidence from people of faith - who, as you admit, can't show any evidence for what they claim. True, true. I'll say it better then: They are practically the same thing. I don't follow this. Doesn't a haploid have the same potential to be a person as a daploid?If my memory serves me right, isn't that potential the reason why condoms were (and pretty much still are) considered a sin in the Catholic faith?- Oni