Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.

Probably. I'm not a bible basher, so I can't tell you for sure. I'll have to look over my sources to get an answer. Unfortunately, they're still in my suitcases (haven't unpacked yet).Based on your knowledge then, when was the first thing in the NT written?

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The Laminator

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There is no solid proof that this item has passed the "litmus tests" but if it does maybe it will give you some positive reinforcement. In October of 2003 they found (what they believe)to be the burial box of James ( the brother of Jesus ). Now, if James is real maybe you could have an easier time with the idea that Jesus is real. Take it slow, baby steps my brother, baby steps. I did a search of "biblical finds" to get to the site where this was. I heard about it when it happened but hadn't heard anything since. They say it will have to go through alot of tests and will take some time to verify. I'm not sure if the world is ready for such a blow to the "anti-God" system. (The story was by Richard N. Ostling of the Associated Press writing in the southjerseynews.com) -ZThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 07-01-2004 12:56 AMThis message has been edited by Zachariah, 07-01-2004 12:58 AM

Introducing untested, unvalidated, unconfirmed, or unrealistic evidence ain't going to help your case one bit. I'm asking for some kind of solid evidence that you fundies pride yourselves everyday with. Is that too much to ask?

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The Laminator

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Yeah, but a similar quote from an Arabic translation of Josephus's Antiquities is what I used in my post. It doesn't have the messianic stuff the contentious quote does. Is this (Arabic version) a forgery as well?The reasons why the Tacitus quote might be unreliable are interesting, but I don't find them particularly compelling - a lot of speculation - but maybe there is more in depth analysis available as those are one liners that seem open to interpretation.This message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 02:26 AM

Probably you didn't hear anything more because your sources didn't want to report what happened. The owner of the ossuary is under investigation for forging artifacts, and the inscription on the ossuary has been declared a fake.http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Final_Reports.htm

edited for redundancyThis message has been edited by custard, 07-01-2004 02:33 AM

Are you asking for evidence that he ever existed?
Or just how we know he exists?

Argggg.... How about this, why don't you give you everything you've got. Fair enough?

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The Laminator

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Well I gave you one, straight from the bible.I'll give you another.
Matter of fact I'm going to give you many evidences that he exists. I don't have time to write them all down tonight, but in the coming days I will.First off, I did everything he asked me to do, and he in return did everything to me as promised, just as it is in the bible.Secondly, he told me this:Matthew 24:9
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.John 15:20
Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[ 15:20 John 13:16] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.Pretty much that is what you do to all "Christian fundies" isn't it?
Persecute them?So you help fulfill prophecy, congradulations bro. You help prove that he exists.The true answer you seek comes from withinside yourself. That is why you don't need me to convince you that he is real. Unless you seek him yourself, with all your heart, you'll be hard pressed to find him.But I will share with you what has happened to me.

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Pretty much that is what you do to all "Christian fundies" isn't it?
Persecute them?

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Let's see. They are allowed to go into their churches and worship in peace without harrassment. Several prominent ones have their own television/radio shows broadcast to the nation. Many prominent elected and appointed officials are fundamentalist Christian (think Ashcroft, for example). What is your definition of persecution? That you don't have the sole authority to decide which laws are passed?

I specifically asked for something not from your bible. And what the hell does this have anything to do with persecution?Have you ever been in a history class before? You christians have persecuted others more than any organization in the history of the freaking universe. Stop freaking complaining.Someone, please hold me back before I pull his tongue out.This message has been edited by Lam, 07-01-2004 07:02 PM

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The Laminator

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I see nothing there that requires me not to use my bible. #1The so called "christians" you speak of who persecuted others, and killed millions, were not acting like christians at all. They weren't christians no matter what they called themselves.So if you blame God, and those people (I said PEOPLE) for christianity being screwed up, then you are missing the whole point.So some guys blow up the twin towers in the name of whatever, and now every dude with a towel on his head is a terrorist?I know your smarter than that to blame "christianity" for everything that happened. Let me clue you in, it wasn't christianity that caused all that stuff, it was man. Man is to blame for everything wrong in this world. Not some religion. For if there was no christianity, then those idiots would have done the same thing in the name of whatever. It wasn't christianity or the teachings of Jesus that drove them to do that.It is the devil that God allowed to cause those things to happen. All because man is so screwd up. And now, you become the big loser because the devil has you just where he wants you. You fell into his trap. Thats exactly what he wants is the world to hate God.Ask yourself a question, "do I really believe that all these bad things that happen in the world are the fault of any specific religion, or was it man just being man?" Listen to your heart.Look at Russia, they banned religion, are they any better off than us?
Do they behave any more humane than the rest of the world?
Don't start giving me lectures on religion in Russia either. I know a few people straight from Russia and weren't allowed to have a religion. Other than that I know very little about the history of religion in Russia.When you lunp all Dhristians into the same category, you are the one being ignorant and prejudice. You are also the one that is now persecuting others, which makes you no better than all those "christians" in the world. I am pre-judged by you based on what I believe in. With that attitude, you hardly deserve an answer, or would you likely accept any answer that I have for you. But still, I will show you love and try to explain to you what I feel.If you expect me to prove to you anything without the bible, then you are not going to get any answers. It is by the bible that I found him, so I would need it to help prove to you his existance.It would be like you trying to prove your gay without another man being around. I can't believe your gay just because you claim it.Anyway thats not how you prove Jesus's existance. The only way to find out if he exists, is for you to find him yourself. If you do not look, you will not find him. If you keep letting the short comings of man get in the way of your search, then you will never find him. If you let the devil get in your way, you will never find him.Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit when he left. I followed his instructions on how to recieve the Holy Spirit, and it came to me. Just like magic(I still am amazed at the whole thing). Now I live with the Holy Spirit inside me and activated, and it is my guide in life. He will never let me down, as long as I never let him down. When your creator speaks to you spiritually, you will then know in your heart that he is real.(any secoond now, rhain will be in here and start another gay thread.)

I wasn't alking about what happens in government, or TV.
I am talking about what Lam does to all christians, based on their religion only.He lumps us all together into one group.
He doesn't like us just because we are Christian. Thats exactly what happened to Jesus. His belief's and values were not liked by others, so they wanted to kill him.Thats like saying all Spanish people are the same. Don't tell that one to a Spanish person.

Having bothered to look in a book or two, I now see that the earliest letter of Paul (probably I Thess) is usually dated to around 51 AD, not the late 50s as I previously stated. Some would put it a few years later, in the mid 50s. Jesus died around 30 AD (give or take a few years), so the earliest book in the NT was written around 20 years after Jesus' death.

I've always thought Jesus died at 1 AD (after death). Oh well.

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The Laminator

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