Is the bible the word of God or men?

Its not a political debate here. If it was, you would not prevail. I would'nt call any nation defending their right to exist in their own ancestral land as genocide. jews do not come from Mars, are not born of pigs and are not hardly associated with today's palestinians, not now nor the past. The name palestinians is post '65. there are no arab-muslim zionists either: last time i checked.

Well we'd better tell the nice people at Webster's that they've got it wrong then.
Actually, I suggest you learn a bit more English before trying to explain it to a native speaker. Then learn some maths. Then do some research into any of the guff that you've been talking. If you are just going to rant and repeat yourself, this is going to get really boring for me and you are going to look increasingly foolish.
By the way, you have never quoted Hubble on this thread. Go back and check (I did). You are a bearer of false witness Joseph, and God is gonna be pissed with you...Edited by Granny Magda, : Fixed quote box.

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Mutate and Survive

No good quoting dictionaries only. There, Infinity is described as w/o end, or given a mathematical term which is an improvisation. But the one factor which distinguishes this phenomenon from everything else in the universe and the imagination, is well quoted in the source which introduced this phenomenon - namely 'changeability'. Either you agree or not, but better with reasoning other than your response. I agree with it.

Nimrod
12-03-2007 06:35 AM--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re: When you say "Palestinian" you are saying "Israelite"!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 80% of the nearly 1 million Palestinians (living in the land now called Israel) were driven from their homes,not allowed to return, and the refugees have swelled (via childbirth) to several million.30% were Christian btw.You arent defending anybodys right to exist in their homeland you worthless dirtbag. That is some quite malicious crap for a man who claims to be Christian.I shouldnt be shocked since it comes from the same "Christian" man who supports the ethnic cleansing of Christians (and Muslims) from the land where Christianity itself began.For nearly 2000 years, Christians were always over 25% of the Holy land (you seem to hate the term "Palestine"-the specialty of small-minded bigots is obsession over simple labels), well since 1948 is has dropped to less than 5%.Something to celebrate,huh? (!)And my point in the previous post in defining the term PALESTINE is to show that is was simply the result of the first ever translation attempt of the word "Israel".The worlds first ever "history" book (literally titled such) mentioned Israel and it was in the early form of the Holy-Land wide (not just Yehudah!) title PALESTINE.450BCE!And the same Herodotus even said the Phoenicians were the source of the alphabet WHICH HE USED! (before the DSS)Your obsession over a single name ("Palestinian" is the gentilic description of a resident of Palestine btw) is simply pathetic.Palestinians are descendants of early Christians, Jews, Canaanites, Samaritans , Arabs, etc.The name factor is 100% unimportant , but it is amazing you show such obsession over a term that historically destroys your lame point in such a decisive fashion. (granted your name-obsessed ignorance its a famous and popular cannard that small-minded "Christians" swallow in the millions).My Albright quote, which you say couldnt pre-date 1965, was from a 1940 book!I have pre 1948 Bible Encylopedia's that show that "Palestine" was the main term use for the land (Im sure it was from a European centric perspective) till the Middle Ages when "Holy Land" was generally, but not always, used.I checked a 1959 yearbook and it used the term "Palestinian lands" to describe Arab lands west of Jordan.Just because westerners use the term "Arab" or "Jew" to distinguish Christians/Muslim residents of Palestine from Jews (pre-1948 or pre-1965) doesnt mean crap.Modern day "Syria" wasnt officially called such till 1971. It was an ancient-Greek corruption of a different land (Assyria was to the east), yet the Greeks used it as a title to descrive the western lands that are today respectively Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.Is the fact that Syria is named after a "misnomer" relevant to anything?Is it an "Arab plot"?No, it was simply a regional name for 2000+ years.Just like Palestine.Palestine actually isnt a mis-named nation by any stretch of the imagination (one can argue that "Syria" is though I would hope it is for intelligent reasons-something alien to you Joseph).I have a set of 1955 encyclopedia's.World Book. The land of Palestine was covered in an entry.Dont worry so much about 1965.Worry about why Palestine was the worlds oldest translation of "Israel".Worry about c500 BCE and the worlds oldest alphabetical "history".

Here is a responce to your sarcastic (and ignorant ... and racist) comment about Arab "Zionists"This is the president of the First Arab Congress, Abd-ul-Hamid Yahrawi, summing up the delegated Arab view on Jews. Here is another historical quote. Arabs wanted to live peacefully with Zionists.It was an exciting thing to be re-united with brothers from the ancient world.Brothers in religion (yup Judaism was described as divinely inspired in the Koran)Arabs didnt know they would be ethnically cleansed from the Palestinian region of Syria.They thought there would be a common future for the peoples in the broader region.Btw, do you object to the Arab use of "Syria" before 1971 when the United Arab Reublic became the "Syrian Arab Reublic"?Should Arabs be expelled from every land that wasnt religiously called a certain title?What are these semantic standards of yours anyway? ( Joseph)When is it o.k. to hatefully kill somebody for their race/nationality/religion?POST DIRECTED TO JOSEPH for responce (mistake in my reply hit)

This mentally-ill obsession with the alphabet is absolutely crazy.I have proven every last claim of yours to be false, so you keep insisting on there being no alphabetical history before the Dead Sea Scrolls.Guess what?Back to Herodotus again! The Father of History proves Joseph wrong again!Also, while we are on the issue of the Semitic alphabet, lest see what the leading Semitic scholar has to say on the issue of an alphabet being somehow radically different from syllabic script. (this was in the context of not having vowels)(Gelb wrote a massive grammar on the earliest West-Semitic language attested, Amorite) Joseph doesn't seem to understand that syllabic scripts are superior to alphabetical scripts.Scholars know more about Akkadian than Hebrew because all the vowels are covered in ancient texts.Plus there are a ton of sounds that cant be represented in the Hebrew alphabet (multiple sounds were used for a single letter).Alphabets are simpler to learn due to having far fewer signs to remember , but a native speaker/reader of Akkadian could easily learn the extra signs.Joseph keeps moving the goal posts , and this foolish obsession on the supposed superiority of alphabetical inscriptions is his last gasp effort which has failed.It is another completely pointless um "point" he feels we should be impressed by.I would actually begin to be impressed if he actually began to use academic sources WITH QUOTES to at least provide proof that he isn't making sh** up.As it stands now, he is just an ignorant bigot who is perfectly willing to lie somehow support his lame views.I have literally never seen such an unethical and unhonorable character on these EVC forums as IamJoseph.
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AbE and warning: Follow the Forum Guidelines. Debate the position, don't slander the person.Edited by AdminPhat, : warning

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Babel=nun.ki
Eridu=nun.ki
Aratta=Ararat=Eden=Urartu
Uruk=Erech

I offered to debate this in a non-science program, and on the basis it is not seen as personal, for it is not so from my POV.

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80% of the nearly 1 million Palestinians (living in the land now called Israel) were driven from their homes,not allowed to return, and the refugees have swelled (via childbirth) to several million.

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I will not clap hands, because you failed to complete your statement, and are clearly wrong in your figures. It was less than 700,000, and the UN archives state the jewish refugees from Arab lands was greater than the combined arab displacements; further, the Jews were massacred, their properties and businees confiscated - and no muslims cry for equal compensation. Secondly, you also omit that unlike the case of the jews being displaced and pogromed in Arab lands - the Arabs in palestine left by themselves, with the goal of returning to grab all the booty - after they were all drowned into the sea. This was the declared goal of genocide of the multiple arab states when they attacked, unprovoked, upon the UN re-established state of israel. The arabs perpertrated this genocidal attack even after voting in the UN Motion: I have this footage if you wish to see it - Israel prevailed despite the overwhelming Islamic states. You also forgot to mentioned this was Jewish ancestral land. You should know, Jews have never stolen any other peoples' lands in all their 4000 year history - despite being the world's most dispersed peoples. How many Arab and European cities did the jews steal? How many other peoples lands did Muslim steal? How many omission in one statement can you make? Significantly, you have today's Al Uqsa only because its control was given to you by Israel, but we know what would be the case if the Arabs won!

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30% were Christian btw.

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I doubt you are concerned about the christians - they are persecuted in Arabia today, specially so in Lebanon, gaza and the west bank, where their population has been reduced to negligible numbers.

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You arent defending anybodys right to exist in their homeland you worthless dirtbag.

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name calling with get you where you are, but it does not equate with facts and truths.

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jews do not come from Mars, are not born of pigs and are not hardly associated with today's palestinians, not now nor the past. The name palestinians is post '65. there are no arab-muslim zionists either: last time I checked.

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That is some quite malicious crap for a man who claims to be Christian.

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I shouldnt be shocked since it comes from the same "Christian" man who supports the ethnic cleansing of Christians (and Muslims) from the land where Christianity itself began.

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For nearly 2000 years, Christians were always over 25% of the Holy land (you seem to hate the term "Palestine"-the specialty of small-minded bigots is obsession over simple labels), well since 1948 is has dropped to less than 5%.

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Something to celebrate,huh? (!)

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I don't hate the term Palestinians, I just see its use by Muslims as one of the greatest hoaxes in the world today: its exactly like calling muslims as Zionists, then claiming that Israel is doing bad things to the muslim zionists. I gave you a history of this name, and it should be seen as an insult for muslims to wear it - it is a derogatory name since 1000s of years, and has absolutely no connections with any semites or arabians or jews. You can have it if you so desire it, but it will not change falsehoods to truth.

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And my point in the previous post in defining the term PALESTINE is to show that is was simply the result of the first ever translation attempt of the word "Israel".

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The worlds first ever "history" book (literally titled such) mentioned Israel and it was in the early form of the Holy-Land wide (not just Yehudah!) title PALESTINE.

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I've no idea what your referring to, except that any such suggestion of srael is not subject to your opinion. FYI, the world's first history book is the OT: how could you have forgotten!

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Palestinians are descendants of early Christians, Jews, Canaanites, Samaritans , Arabs, etc.

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No - this is false. The name was placed exclusively on jews by Rome, and was referred to as such till 1965: that is why you cannot evidence any muslims in Palestine or the Middle-east, attaching this name to them pre '65. And you cannot even connect Canaanites to Arabs, because there were no arabs at this time. The first emergence of arabs as an identifiable ethnic group came after 500 BCE. This also means, there is no direct connection of the Arabs with Abraham or Ishmael, aside from all middle-eastern peoples being in the same region. Nor did the pre-islamic arabs follow the beliefs of Abraham or Moses for 2500 years till islam emerged. I am quoting history and facts here: the assumptions of islam were unilaterally imposed, and never countenanced by christians or jews who were in the same area and know first hand what occured. Only muslims believe what muslims are saying, and the islamic version of history and datings is not condoned by any sector.

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My Albright quote, which you say couldnt pre-date 1965, was from a 1940 book!

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I have pre 1948 Bible Encylopedia's that show that "Palestine" was the main term use for the land (Im sure it was from a European centric perspective) till the Middle Ages when "Holy Land" was generally, but not always, used.

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What I said was, these statements are retrospective, and this stands, whether '65 or 40. There were no muslim palestinians before '65; only jews were referred to as palestinians - today's Jerusalem Post was called The palestinian Post for 100s of years, then this was negated when muslims started to use the name in the 60s. Here, the arab muslims started exploiting the name of the land, which they horded to when it was cleansed of malaria swamps and it started to blossom again. Most of the palestinians today are from Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other surrounding states. Arafat was an egyptian.

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I checked a 1959 yearbook and it used the term "Palestinian lands" to describe Arab lands west of Jordan.

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But you should correct them: arabs know better than anyone who's land this was. The land was called palestine, and thus your guys exploited the name by calling yourselves this name: but show us some muslim arabs calling themselves as such before 60 years? If you claim to this to be your ancestral homeland, you should have 100s of evidences - like coins, calendars, independence day, national anthems, kings, Presidents - everthing common to a land's citizens. Where is it? How come almost every two months this land yields relics dating 1000s of years - all in hebrew, aramaic or greek, with only evidence of israel: what happened to the muslim palestinians?

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Just because westerners use the term "Arab" or "Jew" to distinguish Christians/Muslim residents of Palestine from Jews (pre-1948 or pre-1965) doesnt mean crap.

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It does mean a lot - they have contemporary documents and archives, dating back to before the arab race existed, and before arabic writings emerged. It was an arab who discovered the dead sea scrolls: are these crap? It says nothing about muslim palestinians.

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Modern day "Syria" wasnt officially called such till 1971. It was an ancient-Greek corruption of a different land (Assyria was to the east), yet the Greeks used it as a title to descrive the western lands that are today respectively Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.

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Jordan did not acceot the name palestine: guess why!

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Palestine actually isnt a mis-named nation by any stretch of the imagination (one can argue that "Syria" is though I would hope it is for intelligent reasons-something alien to you Joseph).

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I have a set of 1955 encyclopedia's.World Book. The land of Palestine was covered in an entry.

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Dont worry so much about 1965.

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Worry about why Palestine was the worlds oldest translation of "Israel".

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The oldest hard copy relic of this name is the Egyptian stella, over 3000 years old, and mentions israel. The second is from the tel Dan find, dated 2900 years old.Muslims receved great knowledge and experience from jews, and Jews never did any wrongs to them. Because of a big ego problem, the Muslims cannot acknowledge the gifts of Israel. history shows, the Arab peoples fell into great decline when the jews left Arab lands, despite the new found wealth of oil. The muslims need not any more lands, nor the hijacking of historical names as political tools: its propostrous to assume a name of another peoples and cry how much you are connected to it. It can cause psychological problems and not worth any gains here. But unfortunately, there is a theological reason for the obsessive collecting of lands and the anxst another religion can exist in Arabia - I believe this is a doctrine in the Quran.Cheers.

Ok...small question. So this "God" came to Moses and told him about a guy named Abraham living far away from Egypt. How did Moses know this God character was giving him a true genealogy? Did he just accept this God character's word? What did he have to test it against? How is that evidence of "transcending time and space?"
If Moses didn't know his own history before "God" told him then what did he have to compare it to? How did Moses know it was accurate?I mean, I can make up 1000 years of my family history no problem. I can even make up names (I'm kinda clever like that). All I have to know to make it credible is a general outline of my people's history. I can make up all kinds of shit as long as it fits into accepted history (or maybe not even that much if I come from "peasant stock"). It doesn't have to be that plausible now...how come it had to be plausible 3,000 years ago? And how come you accept it as history now? Do you know your ancestors from 1000 years ago? Couldn't you make it up and make it fit into history? Names and all? And if you want to make it interesting for the kids you have to throw in a few wrenches (like my own ancestor who abdicated his place in line for the Swiss throne to marry an Italian "less than noble" woman and they emigrated to America only to hit an iceberg, be rescued and lose almost everything they had in Nova Scotia and then were sent to New York nearly penniless...see, it's supposedly true and I even have birth/death records to support my story). Outlandish and exciting tales make for good campfire fodder. That doesn't mean everything is true or any of it.Even if "God Himself" told me my missing family history today, how would I know if it is true? I, like Moses, have nothing to compare it to. You and I are hearing this "genealogy" 100th hand and you just accept it as true because names are given? Talk about gullible.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

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Re: When you say "Palestinian" you are saying "Israelite"!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When do you ever "debate"?You dont provide any sources or anything at all.You simply ignore data that demolishes your soundbites and obsessions.Honestly, why are you on a Bible Accuracy forum when you object to the use of "Palestine" to describe the land of Israel as a regional name?Any scholarly treatment of the subject from the past 2000 years will use the term "Palestine" to describe the entire land.You would know that if you ever read any scholars.Anyway the reason you objected is because un-critical fundamentalists, who hold dispensationalist views (an invention from the 1800's), have a vested interest in seeing wars with Muslims & non-Jewish Palestinians because their invented prophecy scenarios DEMAND war and hatred from all sides.They have made up this claim that the Palestinians "are a fictional people" and that the term "Palestine" was some Roman plot to attack Jews after the Second Temple Period ended.You choose to accept this claim un-critically (that means without checking ALL data avaliable from ancient and modern archives), because to question it would be something that would potentially crush a major pillar of your dispensationalist views.You just cant accept the possibility that a major obsession of your was built on a house of lies.NOW THE DATA COE IN VIA ME!I present proof that the term "Palestine" is as old as our oldest "history" books.I present proof that the most scholarly of Ancient Jews (ie Philo of Alexandria) used it to describe the ENTIRE land of Israel even before Paul's ministry.I even showed you that is is a Palestine is a TRANSLATION of the word Israel!How many modern Jewish scholars do I need to quote to completely disprove your obsession? The encyclopedia I quoted from was from leaders in their field.Honestly, drop this obsession.A major belief of yours has been shattered rather completely.Infact, this opens a new window of opportunity for you.Ill explain. Now that you know the truth , you can easily figure out what to think of some joker who tells you that old crap that "palestine wasnt ever as a term for the land of Israel used till Hadrian".You will know those clowns are fools who will likely say alot of other crap that is completely 100% false.Now you know how to get a good idea of the amount of research these "prophecy expert" jokers have performed. You can give them a quick quiz on "palestine" and then you can quickly get an idea if they pass or fail the pop-test once they anwser.If they say the tired old crap that "palestine" wasnt used for the entire land till after Christ's time, then you know they are simply idiots. since you have been proven wrong on nearly every claim you have ever made PLUS provided no documentation for you claims, I think its safe to say you have little credibility when making bold historical claims.NEXT! Stop and think man.A bunch of hard-working and diverse people over an 8,000 square mile area (mostly rural), simply decided to skip town all at once (telepathy?) , in soem grand scheme to magically get-rich quick.With one accord?A single Arab made a comment about driving people into the sea (a rather tame comment during war if I might add), and the United States media never ceases to repeat it endlessly.Ive seen "Christians" say all Arabs should be expelled from the land.High ranking congressmen too.Ive seen Israeli public-opinion polls show that most jews support expelling all Arabs from Palestine/Israel.Ask Palestinians if they want Jews expelled. (they dont!)I can even talk to Palestinian-American friends who saw their families survive Israeli slaughters of civilians in their village only because they had enough money to buy off the soldiers.Do you care to actually research your claims? "unprovoked"?The British were driven out and fighting broke out, and the Israeli's had tens of thousands of trainned soldiers many of which were generals.My Palestinian friend (whose mother was yound at the time there and barely survived) said that there were tons of Russian Israeli soldiers who were very skilled and brutal.The Arab armies that came in were ot nearly as well-trainned and their equipment was very inferior.It wasnt a well-planned invasion, and it wasnt something that anybody relished at from the Arab side. You mean "genocidal" in the same way you accused me of wanting Jews dead?Considering your track record of "research" and "honestly" , Im glad I dont need to take your cheap talk seriously.HOWEVER, since you mentioned enocidal acts...It was European Christians that attempted to kill all Jews in the 40's not Arabs. You havnt got the slightest clue what you are talking about.Typical. Talk to any(or many) Lebanese Christians , Palestinian Christians, etc. and then after critically-LISTENING form your conclusion.Try it once.You might learn something. Do you support the right of ALL Palestinians, Israelis, and Jews to return to their homeland?I support a full *Right Of Return* for all!Do you? You repeated retarded propaganda , which I met with solid historical facts.I responded with 100% demonstrable proof that your claims were false.Now you repeated them again just NOW!AGAIN... Ill give you another chance (but see my past posts for the documentation)REALITY CHECK;
The name "Palestine" is the worlds oldest translation of the word Israel and is was used for the entire land of Israel by diverse historians/scholars from the "Father Of History" Herodotus (c.500 BCE) all the way to Philo of Alexandria (Christs time) and constantly till today bt scholars of all stripes.Why dont you study history?You might learn something! (rolls eyes)Gee, you would never let your unresearched "opinion" get in the way of facts, would you?You make the Dark Ages seem like periods of great learning among he masses! Good point!There were no Muslims in the Middle-East;never was and never were!Great point! I must have missed your quotes. Which of your 700 posts covered quotes from academic sources?Anyway, the Arabs came to Palestine after 700 AD FYI.But even the term "Arab" is misleading because their genetic ancestry is made up of many peoples;including Canaanites and Jews.They have in their blood ALL ancient peoples from the land of Palestine. I have no idea what you are talking about. (Palestine, Arabia, mars?)And the funny thing is that you dont either.What have I said about "Muslim versions of history" (or whatever)? You know next to nothing about the name "Palestine" and its history (I think you have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt!), and honestly it doesnt matter that much-except to show how bloody ignorant you are.I know Palestinians that have many indisputable records proving they owned land in Jerusalem 1000 years ago (these happen to be Christians though).Palestine is the name that the land has been called for 2500 years.Its no shock that it would be called that actually. In English, "PalestinIAN" has the gentilic ending meaning "of Palestine".Since the land was called palestine for so long, it is impossible to not refer to residents *of* Palestine as just that!Aso, lease think a little (a tall task it seems).The modern nation-state wasnt reflective of the situation throughout history-especially in desert regions.Read on Crusader history and you will see that Muslims did infact live there, and they did infact want to stay there.This isnt too complicated.A people really did live in the land the Romans called Syria-Palestine.Even Muslims.And there are records of it from over 1000 years ago : Public and private.The problem is that you want those same people cleansed of the land.Thats the actual issue honestly. My point is that you clearly only read English (and dont even begin to exaust all the avaliable English sources-especially scholarly ones which you never read at all), and you really have no clue what Arabs or any other people called themselves.Im not saying that others dont know,Im just saying you really havnt got a clue.And, if you actually did begin to do a little research, you would stop without getting a broad understanding and represenitive sample.(also, you missed my point)(also, you need to research better because even your most accurate comments are about 80% off) WOW!WHAT A GREAT POINT!A people living outside of Palestine didnt end up being called Palestine!That proves so much! Do you know the difference between a translation, transliteration, or transcription?The Herodotus term "Palestine" was a translation of Israel.It was an attempt at bringing the definition out in his native language.The Merenptah quote was simply a transliteration.It took the word Irsael and spelled it exactly the same in Egyptian.No definition.Also, I thought you were obsessed over a term only being used of a small part of the land.The Merenptah "Israel" was only a sliver of what would later be Israel.The Herodotus quote "Palestine" was in reference to the name Israel and it was used of the entire land by other Greek authors including Jews like Philo.But you dont even accept the plain facts of history, even when documented , so any historical discussion with you will be pointless till you demonstrate the ability to accept truth in plain sight and to reject b.s. (as evidenced by the above quote, it clearly hasnt happened yet-not by a LONGGGGGGGGG shot) Educate yourself first.Debate later.And, you are on the wrong site if your personal obsessions get in the way of researching history.To disrupt a discussion because you cant stand the 2500 year old historical name of "Palestine" being used for the land of Israel shows that you dont belong here.Maybe you would be better off on some board for 1st graders who debate Three Little Pigs or something like that.Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

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I mean, I can make up 1000 years of my family history no problem.

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That will be a grand performance - specially if all the names you make up are found to be authentic and later vindicated: first try it with just a few immediate ancesters, even make up names and dates - it is very difficult, and one of the mysterious aspects of the OT that it lists 1000s of names 2500 years retrospectively. In Moses' case, these names were vindicated by archeologists many 1000s of years later. I admit this depends if those names are in fact authentic. Also in Moses' case, the geneology was known to the Israelites and handed down through the generations, including a covenant with Abraham. Subsequently, they awaited a savior.What can be also seen in this text, is it says God spoke to Moses with the voice of Moses' father [singular term was used, 'I am the Gd of thy father'/Ex]; immediately here, Moses would have had to be taken aback, as his father had died by then - this would be the case with anyone. The text, when examined as one would a math treatise, caters to any legitimate quest.

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The Philistines dwelt in cities and controlled much of the coast, and the term 'Palestine' is cognate with the word Philistine,[3] That area was known in Greek sources from the mid 5th century BCE as Palaistina. When the Romans defeated the Jewish rebellion of 67-70 CE, and merged the province of Judea with Galilee, Samaria and Idumaea, the name Palaestina was applied to the newly formed larger unit.
The ethnic affiliation of the Philistines is not clear. The Philistine names preserved on inscriptions appear to 'contradict the notion that they were Greek-speakers'.[4] Some scholars argue however that they were a non-Semitic group, with roots in Southern Greece dating back to the period of early Mycenaean civilization.[5] Inhabiting a smaller area on the southern coast called Philistia, whose borders approximate the modern Gaza Strip, Philistia comprised a confederation of five city states: Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod on the coast and Ekron, and Gath inland.[6]

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This was a non-semetic people from the agean, who had contact with the greeks prior to greece's emergence in the M/E; they were sea pirates and a major problem for this region - they were non-semetic and had no ethnic connection with any peoples in the M/E. There was no arab race at this time. The plilistines introduced iron and wore formidable iron armoury which could not be pearced by swords. While the Israelites were quagmired in Egypt for 210 years, this peoples embedded themselves in the Gaza vicinity, and had numerous wars with the non-israelite canaanites, and in fact massacred almost all of them; thus the OT states, 'ALL THAT THEY DID TO THE ORIGINAL INHABITANTS YOU SHALL DO UNTO THEM' and 'ALL THAT WAS EVIL IN THE EYES OF THEY LORD DID THIS PEOPLE DO'. They had an underground city in Gaza.

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Egyptian texts of the temple at Medinet Habu, record a people called the P-r-s-t (conventionally Peleset), one of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign. This is considered very likely to be a reference to the Philistines. The Hebrew name Peleshet (— Pléshseth), usually translated as Philistia in English, is used in the Bible to denote their southern coastal region.[citation needed]

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The Assyrian emperor Sargon II called the region the Palashtu in his Annals. By the time of Assyrian rule in 722 BCE, the Philistines had become 'part and parcel of the local population',[7][8] and prospered under Assyrian rule during the seventh century despite occasional rebellions against their overlords.[6] In 604 BCE, when Assyrian troops commanded by the Babylonian empire carried off significant numbers of the population into slavery, the distinctly Philistine character of the coastal cities dwindled away,[7][9] and the history of the Philistine people effectively ended.[6]

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My understanding has some variances with Wiki. The philistines landed in the M/E much earlier, and are listed in the OT as such. While the Israelites were in Egypt, one tribe [of benjamin] made an escape attempt. They took the coastal route, and encountered the philistines, and were all massacred. To display their mesage, they left the bones of the Benjamites on the coast, so the Israelites wanting to return would change their minds after seeing the remains of their kin. This is the reason Moses did not take the coastal route when the exodus occured, but instead embarked on the then unchartered desert route - so the israelites would not change their minds in fear. After david conquered them 3300 years ago, this people were not a power anymore, and became traders of iron metal crafts.This statement also has problems, specially coming from Wiki, who has made a host of errors about the M/E:

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.[6] In 604 BCE, when Assyrian troops commanded by the Babylonian empire carried off significant numbers of the population into slavery, the distinctly Philistine character of the coastal cities dwindled away,[7][9] and the history of the Philistine people effectively ended.[6]

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Some of the Philistines would have joined the Assyrian army, however the assyrians invaded Judea, and with babylon's help, destroyed the temple and jerusalem in 586 BCE. This is how the Israelites landed in Babylon [Iraq], but became rescued when Persia conquered Babylon, and allowed the return and rebuilding of the temple 70 years later
[Book of Esther]. The arab race emerged at this time - first as mercenary gangs which offered protection from invading foreign forces [the Greeks; Persians] - the Egyptian Copts welcomed their protection, then later became subserviant to them - the Arabs are not related to the ancient egyptians. However, many of the Israelites remained in babylon [Iraq], up untill the 1950s when Israel was re-established.The second temple was destroyed by Rome in 70 CE, when Caligula decreed hilself divine and that all had to house his statue in their temples for worship. The Jews were the only peoples who refused, having laws which forbid such an order. This war posed a problem for Rome due to the temples' city-size impregnable fortress walls, set on the high ground of Jerusalem and Masada. Rome was in the spotlight to ensure its decree was followed by all of its empire, and brought mercenaries, among them 10,000 Britons, many Germans, and 100,000 pre-islamic Arabs - which finally breached the walls with then high tech innovative means which took 7 years, and razed the temple, along with massacring 1.1 million Jews. This is how Jews landed in Europe, and then returned last century after 2000 years.The Josephus documents clearly states that the Arab hatred for Israel was the worst, the Roman general calling them savages and a disgrace to Rome's reputation - I wish not to describe the severe words used by Vespathian, but this can be checked by reading it - it is factual history and thus not stated with any negative intentions. So clearly, this hatred pre-dated the Quran and Islam, but was later made a doctrinal hatred in the islamic scriptures, and posited as a divine revelation: this makes it very difficult to resolve these issues, being that such hatred is now attached to core doctrines of belief, and the reason there is no peace here despite Israel forever saying yes to every demand posed by the arab states in Palestine today. The pre-islamic hate relates to a previous event, whereby the Persian King Darius favoured the jews and recognised Judea, Hebron and Samaria as their homeland - which the Arabs saught to take while the jews were exiled to babylon. The return of the Jews by darius' decree caused hatred in the Arabs towards this return - ironically mirroring the events today when the Jews returned following the UN Resolution in '48. But there is no doubt the arabs know who's land this is and how and why Jews were displaced, as this occured in their midst - it is only the theological doctrine which has made the situation unresolvable, and otherwise fronted with a host of reasons which are false and would not resolve this problem. Many have tried, but the muslim people adhere to a requirement nothing in their scriptures can be wrong or altered. SNAFU!Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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Any scholarly treatment of the subject from the past 2000 years will use the term "Palestine" to describe the entire land.You would know that if you ever read any scholars.

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A true scholarly report will show that all arab muslims hated the name Palestine exactly as they do with zionist today. I can produce loads of evidence and links of this. They hated it because it was used exclusively to denote Jews the last 2000 years. Jordan refused this name and adopted the anglo-saxon name instead. This was never a palestinian state, and no peoples ever declared Jerusalem their capital except the Jews. You are choosing words, and the placebos are also not true. Judea, Hebron, Samaria and Jerusalem are hebrew names, recorded in the OT as such. There are no muslim palestinians buried in Hebron - all six burials in the machpela cave are that of Hebrews, yet muslims erected signs here and in east Jerusalem prior to '67, DOGS & JEWS FORBIDDEN, and the Jerusalem temple is a zionist myth: really - do you believe this open lie? This would negate history, as well as the gospels which says one Jesus visited this mythical temple! Then there is the lie that Jesus was a palestinian and moses a muslim - with no mention of his hebrew background and beliefs, as if the jewish race never existed! How do muslims accept such stuff!

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Anyway the reason you objected is because un-critical fundamentalists, who hold dispensationalist views (an invention from the 1800's), have a vested interest in seeing wars with Muslims & non-Jewish Palestinians because their invented prophecy scenarios DEMAND war and hatred from all sides.

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I saw no proof just dishistory:

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Jerusalem and False Muslim claims.

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Since 1967, there has been a growing attempt by Palestinians to marshal the religious fervor of the Arab and Muslim world in order to wrest Jerusalem from Israeli control. As historian Dr. Yitzhak Reiter documented in a 2005 study entitled "From Jerusalem to Mecca and Back: The Islamic Consolidation of Jerusalem," their campaign involves denying the Jewish connection to Jerusalem and the Temple Mount while advancing Jerusalem and particularly the al-Aqsa compound’s sacredness in contemporary Islam. It also involves reinventing history to create an Arab connection to Jerusalem predating the Jewish one.

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Even now, there are mounting accusations that the Muslim Waqf is deliberately destroying ancient Jewish artifacts and structures from the First Temple period under the guise of renovations on the Temple Mount in order to erase any archeological evidence of Jewish existence there.

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BACKGROUND

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1) The Centrality of the Temple Mount to Judaism

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Jewish reverence for the Temple Mount (Har HaBayit) long predates the building of the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque in the 7th century CE, and even predates the construction of the first Jewish Temple (Beit HaMikdash) by King Solomon almost 2000 years earlier in 954 BCE. (This Temple was destroyed in 587 BCE.)

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The Beit HaMikdash was built, according to Jewish tradition, on the Even Hashtiya, the foundation stone upon which the world was created. This is considered the epicenter of Judaism, where the Divine Presence (Shechina) rests, where the biblical Isaac was brought for sacrifice, where the Holy of Holies and Ark of the Covenant housing the Ten Commandments once stood, and where the Temple was again rebuilt in 515 BCE before being destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. The Temple Mount is also known as Mount Moriah (Har HaMoriah), mentioned frequently in the Torah.

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Jerusalem, Judaism’s holiest city, is mentioned hundreds times in the Torah. It was the capital city of ancient Israeli kingdoms and home to Judaism’s holiest Temple. Jews from all over the ancient world would make pilgrimages to the Beit HaMikdash three times a year to participate in worship and festivities, as commanded in the Torah. Jerusalem and the Beit HaMikdash have remained the focus of Jewish longing, aspiration, and prayers. Daily prayers (said while facing Jerusalem and the Temple Mount) and grace after meals include multiple supplications for the restoration of Jerusalem and the Beit HaMikdash. Jews still maintain the 9th day of the Hebrew month of Av, the date on which both the First and Second Temples were destroyed, as a day of mourning. The Jewish wedding ceremony concludes with the chanting of the biblical phrase, “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning,” and the breaking of a glass by the groom to commemorate the destruction of the Temples. And Yom Kippur services and the Passover Seder conclude each year with the phrase “Next Year in Jerusalem.”

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A single Arab made a comment about driving people into the sea (a rather tame comment during war if I might add), and the United States media never ceases to repeat it endlessly.

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Single arab? It was Egypt's president, along with five other arab states, marching across a UN established state, and chanting genocide, with armies which outnumbered Israel by 50 to one, and with advanced weaponry from Russia:'NO NEGOTIATIONS, NO PEACE, NO COMPROMISE - WE WILL UTTERLY DESTROY ISRAEL AND DRIVE ALL JEWS INTO THE SEA. THEIR BLOOD WILL FLOW ACROSS ARABIS'The arab states perpertrated this greatest of UN violations after voting at the UN Motion. There is still no UN Resolution against this great crime - thus it was repeated four times since '48.The muslims massacred 1000s of jews and others when Islam emerged, because they did not accept Islam. This is a fact and verifiable wherever islam throd: check what they did in India - where there are no zionists. Only muslims have the law anyone leaving the faith is subject to a death fatwah, and that no other religion can rule in Arabia - including those who predate the arab race, such as the jews, the kurds, the copts and the christians. The kurds and christians rightly should be restored in S. Iraq and Lebanon: you are forgetting that today's arab states are less than 150 years old, have no historical borders and were carved by Briton on oil deposits. This is not the case of Jews and Palestine - her borders are evidential and recorded. As I sait, the acknowledgement of truth and history is not an attack on anyone. Israel's history is being denied as is the holocaust and all of history in islamic states today, and no muslims have the guts to confront these falsehoods. Jews have never stolen anyone's lands in all their 4000 year history. Stand up and be a man - there is no such thing as belief w/o honesty: thus the first of all moral/ethical laws is that of honesty [Not to swear in vain].

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They have made up this claim that the Palestinians "are a fictional people" and that the term "Palestine" was some Roman plot to attack Jews after the Second Temple Period ended.

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Not so - I gave a correct appraisal of the history of this region. The fiction only relates to muslims hijacking this name [not a reputable name I assure you] as a political tool: because you have no evidence whatsoever of any muslim peoples ever being called palestinians - its hardly worth debating when dis-history and distortion is the game.

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You just cant accept the possibility that a major obsession of your was built on a house of lies.
since you have been proven wrong on nearly every claim you have ever made PLUS provided no documentation for you claims, I think its safe to say you have little credibility when making bold historical claims.

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This is evidence the muslim arabs themselves denying any connection with the term, palestinian:

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Who Are the Palestinians? At DePaul, Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell | CAMERA

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Jay Ambrose, a columnist with Scripps-Howard News Service, wrote that

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what's going on at DePaul and elsewhere is a New McCarthyism, directed this time around not at suspected communists, but at those who voice views contrary to the politically correct, intellect-stops-here glop that passes for idealism.
DePaul's president, The Rev. Dennis Hotlschneider, replied to Ambrose that "the issue is Klocek's conduct, not the content of his speech," for allegedly shouting and gesturing at students "in a belligerent and menacing manner." Mauck said both the students and Klocek raised their voices, but that his client did not threaten students. "It was one against 20, and the one was a 57-year-old man with a kidney illness." Regardless, Dumbleton's letter focuses on content as well as alleged behavior.At press time, the university had asked for an extension to answer Klocek's suit. Meanwhile, remedial history is in order at DePaul to clarify the issues underlying the encounter, Palestinian nationalism and Islamic terrorism.

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Who Are the Palestinians?

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"Palestinian" today typically applies to Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to those who fled what became Israel in 1948 and their descendants. Often it also covers the Palestinian majority in Jordan, and sometimes even Israeli Arabs. Essentially, these are 20th century usages, like the adjectives Soviet and Yugoslav.

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Although a distinct Palestinian nationalism is taken for granted internationally today, the notion of a Palestinian people separate and distinct from neighboring Arabs is relatively recent. Indeed, Zahir Muhsein, a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee, told the Dutch newspaper Trau on March 31, 1977:

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The Palestinian people does not exist . . . . The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.

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In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

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Muhsein emphasized a point often made. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations in Jerusalem in 1919, called to choose delegates to the Paris Peace Conference, declared:

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We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic, and geographic bonds.

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In 1947, the United Nations was considering the second partition of British Mandatory Palestine (Transjordannow Jordan and 77.5 percent of the total areahad been separated in 1921 and Jews forbidden to settle there). The Arab Higher Committee informed the General Assembly that "Palestine was part of the province of Syria" and "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political identity."

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Early in the century a few Christian Arabs did promote the idea of Palestinian Arab nationalism to secure the social-political equality that pan-Islamic movements might deny them. But generally, after the collapse of Ottoman Turkish rule in World War I and subsequent British ascendancy, "Palestinian" referred to Jews. The Palestine Post, Palestine Land Development Company, Palestine Philharmonic and other similarly named institutions, all were Jewish enterprises, manifestations of the Zionist effort to renew Jewish sovereignty in eretz Yisrael, the land of Israel.

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The PLO Charter, as rewritten in 1968, varies the definition of Palestinian in three separate articles. Article One declares that "... the people of Palestine is part of the Arab nation" while Article Five claims "the Palestinians are the Arab nationals who were living permanently in Palestine until 1947 ... [or] anyone born of a Palestinian father after that, whether within Palestine or outside it ...." Article Six allows that Jewsat least some of themcould be Palestinians too: "Jews who were living permanently in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinian."

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In fact, today's Palestinians, especially the large majority who are Sunni Muslims, have no significant religious, linguistic, cultural, or national differences from their brethren in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and even Egypt and Saudi Arabia. This is not surprising since many of their ancestors migrated from those areas in the 19th and 20th centuries.

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Egyptians arrived with Mehmet Ali's conquest in the 1830s and stayed. Hence the common Palestinian family or clan name, "al-Masri," meaning "the Egyptian." Later in the 19th century, Turkish overlords imported non-Arab Muslims from Sudan and the Balkans to western Palestine. Arabs from the Arabian peninsula settled in the Hebron Hills.

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As Zionist Jews built the foundation for a national home, economic and health conditions improved in western Palestine. Many Arabs migrated, often illegally, from Transjordan, Syria, and Lebanon, and internally from the West Bank and Gaza Strip into what would become Israel to take advantage of the higher standards. Between 1922 and 1947, for example, the non-Jewish populations in Haifa, Jerusalem, and Jaffa grew many times faster than accounted for by natural increase alone.

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The related claim that Palestinian Arabs are not only an historically distinct people but also an ancient one are questionable as well. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) implicitly recognized evidence to the contrary when, after 1948, it granted refugee status to any Arab who had resided in what was now Israel for a minimum of two years.

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Biblical Philistines

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Historically, the biblical Philistines were not Arabs but rather Mediterranean sea people, whose culture was influenced by that of Crete. Landing in southwestern Canaan about 1200 BCE (Before the Common Era), they battled intermittently with the Israelites of the Judean and Samarian hill country until finally being erased from history by Babylonian conquerors late in the seventh century.

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The substitution of "Palestine" for Judea, land of the Jews, was an early psychological warfare maneuver. After the second Jewish revolt, 132 - 135 CE (Common Era), Rome dispersed many of the survivors andto erase their connection to the landrenamed Judea "Palaestina." Hence the derivation of the Arabic word Filastin, although Arabs did not settle west of the Jordan River in large numbers until the Muslim conquest 500 years later in the seventh century C.E.

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Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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A major belief of yours has been shattered rather completely.

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I do not go by belief, and let historical facts rule. Here is another link you will see a host of disputations of arab claims, also declared by arabs themselves:

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Palestine has never existed...as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

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Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today...No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough.

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From Myths of the Middle East, Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily, 11 October 2000

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ESTABLISHING A FIRM DIVIDE
by Boris Shusteff
FREEMAN CENTER FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES
P.O. Box 35661
Houston, Texas 77235-5661

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The Arab-Israeli conflict is so replete with lies, fictions, myths and half-truths that one might write a book just enumerating them. The hard facts that used to be common knowledge at the beginning of the twentieth century are today completely distorted and obfuscated. One of these myths pertains to the "struggle" of the "Palestinian people" for self-determination. The common misconception in this case is that Israel "owes" the Palestinian Arabs a state. Therefore the terrorist activity of the Arabs is to a certain extent excusable, since they are "fighting for their rights." However, nothing can be more remote from the truth. In reality, any land to which the Palestinian Arabs can claim any rights is already held by other Arabs. And the "struggle for self-determination against Israel" is simply a way for the Arabs to murder and maim more Jews.

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The point of this discussion is not to prove or to disprove the existence of the so-called "Palestinian people." For our purposes it is sufficient to know that Palestinian identity did not exist before World War I, as convincingly demonstrated Professor of history Rashid Khalidi, himself a Palestinian Arab. He admits that "Palestinian identity" was the last garb that the Arabs of Palestine tried on when all other possibilities where exhausted. It was shared "by a relatively restricted stratum, and among them as well as among the rural and illiterate majority of the population, the new sense of Palestinian identity competed and overlapped with Ottomanism and Arabism, as well as older religious, local and family loyalties" (1).

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The term "Palestinian entity" was introduced by the Arabs for the first time at the Arab League meetings in 1959. However, it was not recognized by the world and was not even mentioned in UN Resolution 242 after the Six-Day War. Moreover, the confusions associated with it became obvious during the voting for UN General Assembly resolution of November 5, 1970. "Among the aspects of this resolution, which split the United Nations and indeed the Arab world itself and marshaled the support of only 57 out of 127 UN members, was the reference to 'the Palestinians' as 'an indispensable element' of a Middle East Settlement" (2).

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All this points to the fact that at the time of the distribution of formerly-Turkish territories, which encompassed the whole area of the Near and Middle East there was no distinctive "Palestinian people."

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More: http://www.afsi.org/MEDIA/newsLinks/shockers/m100.htm

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Wikipedia isnt the best source for complicated scholarly matters.The 700 pages Archaeological Encyclopedia is edited by two of the leading experts in their field (plus the articles have many contributors who are leaders in their field.Though they arent named, I can easily tell who wrote many of the articles regardless)Shimon Gibson (of Britain) was featured as an expert in the Jesus Tomb documentary.I would pay far more attention to academic sources than wikipedia (though your wikipedia article has much mroe credibility than the crap IamJoseph is pulling from the net)ISSUES!Anyway, I am well aware that the word that our modern "Palestine" is cognate with is the word for the coastal strip ie Biblical Philistia.The far-superior academic encyclopedia I referenced made that clear.The *complicated* issue involved is that the word similar to "Palestine" -which was used to describe the entire land- was a translation of the Hebrew Israel (actually Israel was an Amorite word) and was used first by Herodotus.It may have led to some confusion and corruption of the exact spelling-not to mention definition , but that is actually quite common with ancient names. (the orign of many commonly-used ancient place names is debated and has been debated for housands of years)The real ironic issue, is that non of this matters ( the issue of a regional/national title).The issue is that modern day Palestinians DO HAVE roots in the land with ancestry that leads to ALL peoples who ever lived there (including Jewish converts to Islam or christianity!).Take the founder of Christianity for a quite illustration;Jesus had a larger faimily of ethnic-Jewish conerts to what would become(or was) Christianity.100 years later, its obvious non of the Christian descndants would consider themselves "Jewish" if they even knew they had ancestors who were.The descendants are called "Arabs" (or heaven forbid "Palestinians"!) today and people like IamJoseph are arguing for their extermination from the land.However, a very similar word was used