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Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
General Nazort Inactive Member |
studies of the period offer insights into the varied philosophical and religions ways of thinking that differ from today. And the mythicist position does offer an explanation of Paul's and other early writer's silence on the historical events found in the gospels. Except that these writing do talk about events in the gospel - mythicist proponents simply interpret them to mean some "alternate world" theory. Saying that Jesus existed and is historical is a much better fit with the writings in the gospel than the mythicist position that Jesus began in a heavenly alternate world and the gospels evolved into putting him on earth. Doherty has given an explanation for Hebrews (which I don't agree with,) how does he explain these other Bible passages? 1 Corinthians 11:20-26
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 5In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. This shows clear knowledge of the Last Supper with Jesus Jude 12:
These men are blemishes at your love feasts A love feast was the celebration of the Last Supper Col 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death Christ had a physical body 1 Cor 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing Reference to Jesus's teachings about faith being able to move mountains 1 Cor 15:1-8
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. Sounds pretty historical to me. Names and everything. Is this also a "higher world mythic parallel to the earthly copy"? 2 Cor 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Oh? So they used to regard Christ from a wordly point of view, as a real ordinary person? I have more but I will stop there for now. This is compelling evidence that these early writers regarded Christ as a real historical figure. If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
An intersting read from Doherty, as usual. I don't know if his analysis is correct, I need to look up what other scholars say.
But, I really really doubt there is any way he can explain away 1 Cor 15:1-8 by examining the original Greek. And if that is historical, the rest of his arguments crumble. If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Hey Ifen.
I found a website that seems to be a good counter to Doherty's mythicist theories. Here it is: http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_D01_FYCBS.html I have not had time to read much, but one interesting thing I found is the explanation of the "high-context" society of ancient times, in the "20 pound gorilla" sectio. Writers assumed that readers knew the context and background for their stories, so they did not bother to fill in background details. This is why Paul did not bother to give background details about Jesus - he assumed his readers already knew all that. An example of this mindset is Jesus and the woman at the well - this story involves tons of background information that we generally don't know today but people back then did. If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Well, Jesus didn't actually fullfilly the prophecies needed for being the Jewish Messiah, you know. And, of course, when ti comes to the 'prophecies' that are claimed by gospels, anybody can write someone to make it appear to fullfill prophecies, particularly when they have a book that that claim predicts it, and quote mine to make him appear to fullfill them. Matthew in particular did this, since many of the 'prophecies' are mistranslations, items taken out of context and a miss understanding of the Jewish scripture. Matthew didn't even get the geography of the region correct in some places. Lets see you back this up, ramoss. Explain how Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, show examples of prophecies that are "mistranslations," and how Matthew didn't get the geography of the area correct.
There is no place in the new testamant that words attributed to Jesus (In context) that said he was God. Riiiiight. It's only all over the gospels, especially John. "Before Abraham was, I am." "I and the Father are one." "The Father is in me, and I in him." He also forgave sins, which only God could do. If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Actaully, there might be absolutes , but if you read what he said, you absolutely don't know it. And if you read what I said, that is a self-refuting statement. Darth Mal said: "To me, there is truth. However, you can never know truth for sure." The statement "you can never know truth for sure" is assumed to be true! But if you can't really know truth for sure, then you can't know that the statement "you can't know truth for sure" is true. If that statement cannot be known to be true for sure, it is possible that it could not be true, in which case you could know truth for sure.
Actaully, there might be absolutes... [but] you absolutely don't know it. Are you absolutely sure that "you absolutely don't know it"? Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Can you show me evidence of Exodus, Jerica, Sodom and Gomorah?? From a peer reviewed archelogical journal, not some theologist who is trying to push a theological point. The point is not what archeology has not yet discovered, it is that it HAS discovered many other cities that are mentioned in the Bible. Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Why should we trust the New Testament, since the New testament copied so much from the Tanakh. Isn't the Tanakh another name for the Hebrew Bible, aka Old Testament? Of course the New Testament quoted from it a lot...
Why would we trust the Torah, when it borrowed so heavily from the Sumarian and the Ugartic Bible? I don't know much about this... could you show me proof of how the Torah borrowed from these other bibles?
Why should we trust as 'truth' about the origins of everything from spriitual writings from bronze age goat herders ?? Becaues they were inspired by God? Because they were a lot closer to the events than we were? Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
It is likely that the authors of the Bible would know local town and cities. The error comes with the related events. For example, the tales of Joshua. If you go by the timeline in the Bible, Joshua was invading empty, abandoned, defensless towns. Many stories use familar locales, but are still fiction. That is one issue still being debated. Different scientists have gotten different dates, some dates work with the Bible and others don't work. But the Bible is still somewhat historically based, at a MINIMUM. Archeology supports the Bible, and where it may disagree there are large debates. And these debates have not had a decided outcome that contradicts the Bible. Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
It is one thing to say that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies about him, and another to say that a propchey he fulfilled was not a prophecy in the first place. But whatever. Sure, I guesss I will try to go through these one by one with you. Gimme some time to research this one.
Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the French accent!)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Finally, I have just got to ask what does this mean? And why for a while was it a spanish accent and now it's a french accent? Because I am confused It is Spanish again... sigh Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Hey Ifen, did you ever check out that website I found? Here is the link again: http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_D01_FYCBS.html
Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
I will note that the entire page was one big ad hominin attack on Dotherty. Where exactly does J.P. Holding attack Earl Doherty himself as opposed to Doherty's arguments, reasoning, and method? That is what ad hominem means, after all. Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent!)
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General Nazort Inactive Member |
Hey mike,
While I agree with a few things you have said, such as conditions on earth being "fine-tuned" as it were to support life, the rest of your arguments make little sense. For example,
You must face the unavoidable fact that we exist, therefore God does. Why is this statement a true statement?? Why couldn't the universe exist without God? Also, what exactly are you trying to say about time?? If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
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