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Author Topic:   Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God.
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 320 (130852)
08-05-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Kapyong
08-05-2004 3:25 AM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
Actually, the scholarly consensus is that the Gospels DO mention the destruction of the Temple (e.g. G.Mark Ch.13), which is one reason they are usually dated (shortly) AFTER 70CE. Scholars do not believe in prophecy.
Actually, many scholars DO believe in prophecy! Mostly atheist scholars start with the "prophecy is impossible" assumption because they are biased (they already believe Christ was not supernatural.) Jesus is reported as predicting the destruction of the Temple in Mark and also in Matthew 24. If you start with the ASSUMPTION that prophecy is impossible, of course you will date those gospels later than 70 A.D. because you assume that those lines were put in after the fact had become known. Someone would do this so people would think highly of Christs' "miraculous" powers. However, if you make this assumption you also throw out everything else supernatural, and the message of the gospels becomes virtually destroyed. You cannot make this assumption based on your prior beliefs.
If this prophecy is a fake, one would expect a lot more to be said about it so that people could clearly point to how it "came true." But it is only mentioned ONCE in each gospel. If I were trying to hoax a prophecy, I would probably put in more about it. This seems to indicate that the prophecy is possibly genuine.
Indeed, Hebrews may have been pre 70 CE, for this very reason.
But, Hebrews says nothing about the Ministry of Jesus.
What about this from Hebrews 5:7? This gives indication of knowledge of the Ministry of Jesus:
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
"During the days of Jesus' life on earth." This refers to His Ministry! Also Bebrews 10:5
Therefore, when Christ came into the world...
More indication of existence as a person on earth.
Hebrews 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Are you seriously saying that this is a "spiritual," "symbolic," or "heavenly" city and gate? This obviously is refering to the crucifiction of Jesus outside the gates of the city of Jerusalem, at Golgotha!
In fact it's clear the writer of Hebrews had never heard of Jesus of Nazareth -
* Hebrews refers to the coming as if its the FIRST, not the second
This is not true! Hebrews 9:25-28 says:
Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
This CLEARLY says Christ came to earth a first time (to die for our sins) and that he "will appear a second time." If the writer is anticipating his 2nd coming, obviously he had a first coming that the writer knows about.
Hebrews describes the Son in platonic terms as a spiritual being
Can a spiritual being have blood, die, and be sacrificed, as Hebrews clearly states? Possibly, a spiritual being could die and be sacrificed, but can it have blood? It is a spirit! You could argue the blood is symbolic, but this is stretching things pretty thin. The more plausible explanation is that the writer of Hebrews regarded Jesus as a real, physical human being, who could, as a human, bleed.
I see all of this, and many other things, as evidence for the existence of an actual, historical Jesus.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Kapyong, posted 08-05-2004 3:25 AM Kapyong has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by lfen, posted 08-06-2004 1:46 AM General Nazort has replied
 Message 228 by lfen, posted 08-06-2004 2:12 AM General Nazort has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 227 of 320 (130905)
08-06-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by General Nazort
08-05-2004 8:37 PM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
General,
I'm quoting from Earl Doherty's site: AgeOfReason
This is what Doherty says about Hebrews 13:12
11Those animals whose blood is brought as a sin-offering by the High Priest into the sanctuary have their bodies burnt outside the camp, 12and therefore Jesus also suffered outside the gate, to consecrate the people by his own blood. 13Let us then go to meet him outside the camp, bearing the stigma that he bore.
The first thing to note is that the name of Jerusalem is not used. Only the Gospel story would lead us to identify the author’s thought about a gate with that city. Nor does the name of Calvary or Golgotha ever appear.
Note, too, that the flanking verses above use the word camp. Here we need to look at the Greek word parembole. It means a fortified military camp, and it is used in Exodus and Leviticus to refer to the Israelite camp in the wilderness of Sinai. Hebrews, in its presentation of the cultic rituals of sacrifice, seems to have this ancient ‘historical’ setting in mind rather than any contemporary Herodian Temple. The present passage, then, lies far from the site of Jerusalem in the writer’s mind; and all of it has the mark of symbolic significance. Jesus suffering outside the gate is an element which is dependent, not on some historical record, but on the idea in the previous phrase. Jesus did this because bodies of sacrificed animals were burned outside the camp.
For this writer, everything to do with Christ and his sacrifice must be modeled on the sacrificial cultus of the Jewish religion, as described in scripture. Scripture determines the picture he creates of Christ and his activities in the spiritual world, and if animals were sacrificed outside the boundaries of the camp at Sinai, then Jesus had to undergo the same thing, in a higher world mythic parallel to the earthly copy.
Here is a little more of the discussion and basis for the analysis:
In the last Supplementary Article (No. 8) I described how the philosophy of the period regarded the upper spiritual portion of the universe as containing the primary and ideal counterparts of material world things, giving savior gods like Christ features which sound like human attributes. Not only could the Lord be sprung from Judah (Hebrews 7:14) because scripture indicated that this would be the Messiah’s lineage (see the discussion in Sprung From Judah in Article No. 8, Christ As "Man"), but he could also be said to possess the likeness of flesh and blood and to undergo sacrifice. Says 2:14: Since (Christ’s children) have blood and flesh, he too shared the same things in a like manner (the Greek word means "similar, near to," not "identical"), so that through death he might break the power of him who had death at his command. This is a classic expression of the parallel between the higher world paradigm and the believers linked to him on earth.
If flesh could refer to the lower celestial regions, or more generally to the counterpart spirit world of myth where all the activities of savior gods and goddesses took place, then Hebrews 5:7 can readily be placed in such a context:
In the days of his flesh (en tais hemerais tes sarkos autou) he offered up prayers and petitions, with loud cries and tears, to God who was able to deliver him from death (literally, out of death). Because of his humble submission his prayer was heard.
Scholars regularly claim that this passage is a reference to an incident in the earthly life of Jesus, namely the Passion scene in the Garden of Gethsemane. But is it? Some recognize the problems in such an interpretation. At Gethsemane, Jesus’ anguished plea that the cup of suffering should pass him by was in fact not answered by God, which contradicts the point the writer wishes to make. From 4:14 on, he is anxious to show that Jesus is qualified to be High Priest for human beings, and one of his tasks, like the earthly high priest, is to petition God on their behalf. The reference in 5:7 is designed to show that on the latter score Jesus has already proven himself. For in the days of his flesh his prayers to God on his own behalf were answered. Not that the writer of Hebrews envisions his Jesus as having successfully avoided death through prayers to God for such a thing; those prayers were rather that Jesus be delivered out of death (that is, brought up from it: see below) and that he be perfected through suffering and obedience in order to serve as the source of humanity’s salvation (cf. 2:10). And in fact, says the writer, this request was granted.
I'm in a time crunch. I will try to find the thread and the objection based on "en sarka" but it may not be until next week.
Whether or not Doherty's interpretation is the correct one his studies of the period offer insights into the varied philosophical and religions ways of thinking that differ from today. And the mythicist position does offer an explanation of Paul's and other early writer's silence on the historical events found in the gospels.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by General Nazort, posted 08-05-2004 8:37 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:08 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 228 of 320 (130912)
08-06-2004 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by General Nazort
08-05-2004 8:37 PM


The thread about Paul's use of "kata sarka"
http://EvC Forum: Eyewitness To Jesus? The Gospel Authors -->EvC Forum: Eyewitness To Jesus? The Gospel Authors
General,
Just in case you are interested here is the thread. sfs never gave me permission and I could have paraphrased and asked Doherty but somehow in the waiting and all it slipped my mind. I've kind of been waiting to see what more emerges. Also I kind of got over satiated trying to follow the jesusmysteries group over at yahoo groups.
As to Bible prophecy. Well first there would need to be non bibical corroboration. Thomas Paine seems to be one of the first to point out that although the gospel authors were wanting to show the Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy they managled a lot of the OT in doing so, and often what they claim was prophecy was spurious stuff from Psalms that weren't referring to Jesus.
I'd have to redo my search on Tom Paine to find his paper on that though. I don't rule out that their might have been a historical teacher whose followers believed was the messiah, but I find Doherty's interpretation of Paul's writings and views fascinatating.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by General Nazort, posted 08-05-2004 8:37 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by General Nazort, posted 08-07-2004 2:28 AM lfen has replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 320 (131248)
08-07-2004 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by lfen
08-06-2004 2:12 AM


Re: The thread about Paul's use of "kata sarka"
I read the last page of that thread, - it was quite intersting. I am really learning a lot in these debates. Did anyone ever ask Doherty about the use of kata sarka for both Jesus and Paul himself?

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by lfen, posted 08-06-2004 2:12 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by lfen, posted 08-07-2004 3:57 AM General Nazort has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 230 of 320 (131261)
08-07-2004 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by General Nazort
08-07-2004 2:28 AM


Re: The thread about Paul's use of "kata sarka"
All I know is that I haven't and the thread didn't continue. One of the things I'm trying to puzzle out around here is why some threads just fizzle out. Some get too long, some the admins close, but others just die out.
I was hoping to cut and paste sfs post and email it to Doherty. I guess cause these are googled I could do that, but I would have felt better with permission. I suppose I should paraphrase it and ask Doherty, but I've just gotten busy with other stuff.
I like this place for what I learn also.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by General Nazort, posted 08-07-2004 2:28 AM General Nazort has not replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 320 (132558)
08-10-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by lfen
08-06-2004 1:46 AM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
studies of the period offer insights into the varied philosophical and religions ways of thinking that differ from today. And the mythicist position does offer an explanation of Paul's and other early writer's silence on the historical events found in the gospels.
Except that these writing do talk about events in the gospel - mythicist proponents simply interpret them to mean some "alternate world" theory. Saying that Jesus existed and is historical is a much better fit with the writings in the gospel than the mythicist position that Jesus began in a heavenly alternate world and the gospels evolved into putting him on earth.
Doherty has given an explanation for Hebrews (which I don't agree with,) how does he explain these other Bible passages?
1 Corinthians 11:20-26
When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 5In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
This shows clear knowledge of the Last Supper with Jesus
Jude 12:
These men are blemishes at your love feasts
A love feast was the celebration of the Last Supper
Col 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death
Christ had a physical body
1 Cor 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing
Reference to Jesus's teachings about faith being able to move mountains
1 Cor 15:1-8
Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Sounds pretty historical to me. Names and everything. Is this also a "higher world mythic parallel to the earthly copy"?
2 Cor 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Oh? So they used to regard Christ from a wordly point of view, as a real ordinary person?
I have more but I will stop there for now. This is compelling evidence that these early writers regarded Christ as a real historical figure.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by lfen, posted 08-06-2004 1:46 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 3:15 AM General Nazort has not replied
 Message 233 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 4:08 AM General Nazort has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 232 of 320 (132666)
08-11-2004 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by General Nazort
08-10-2004 10:08 PM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
General,
I'm going to test myself and try answering before rechecking Doherty's web site. His site is quite extensive and it can take a while to dig things up. Bear in mind English is the only language I know. Doherty reads Greek and much of his argument will be based on his interpretation of the Greek texts.
So when you write, "Sounds pretty historical to me. Names and everything. Is this also a "higher world mythic parallel to the earthly copy"? "
I have to say in this translation it does sound pretty historical. I will guess that Doherty's reading of the Greek text will, not surprisingly support his assertions.
My recall is that the rite of the last supper is compared to other Greek mystery religious rituals, Mithras, I believe, that had rituals like a last supper but was clearly not a historical event. The text as you quoted supports a claim that early christians had a key rite of a love feast the recalled or re enacted a key element of the religion.
I'm pretty sure Doherty will say that instead of the "night he was betrayed" that the word here translated as "betrayed" also means something like "handed over" or "given over" and this refers to the enactment of the salvation sacrifice and not Judas's actions.
The passage on the "faith to move mountains" only shows that was an early teaching of the church that it was attributed to Christ doesn't seem to me to imply a historical Jesus.
I'm not sure what the worldly point of view was. It's Paul and other Christians who regarded Christ from a worldly point of view, I don't know if that means they view Christ as an ordinary person. They are talking about their viewpoint and I can imagine it could mean quite a number of things that Paul is catagorizing as worldly. Being an ordinary person is only one possibility.
Paul and the Gospels both have a strong element of midrash, reading the OT to find hidden meanings. The claim is that Mark is using the OT to construct a story that illustrates the function or truth of Christ not the biography of some human who lived and taught. Later gospel writers expanded on that story and shaped it to meet their viewpoints or the viewpoints of their communities.
Paul and Mark are the earliest documents of the New Testament and are key. There is only a few other questionable sources that point to the possibility of a historical Jesus and most of those appear to be later forgeries. The traditional understanding is of course historical for both natural and supernatural viewpoints. The translations that I can read as well as tradition weight towards a historical viewpoint but I don't yet feel that strong enough to be "compelled" by it.
My brother feels there must has been a real teacher who was awakened and who taught and whose life formed the source that was mythologized as the Christ. But a hellenized Judaism seems a possiblity also and I am still weighing the arguments.
I'm not sure when I'll have the time to poke around Doherty's site and dig out his viewpoints on Corinthians.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:08 PM General Nazort has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 233 of 320 (132681)
08-11-2004 4:08 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by General Nazort
08-10-2004 10:08 PM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
General,
I am copying this passage from Doherty here. But I will refer you to his web site where it is easy to find in the contents his discussion of Paul and Corinthians.
I put such a large chunk in to show you the detail of Doherty's analysis. He makes a good case. I don't think at this point it is a conclusive case but neither is the historicist position. I think the "compellingness" of the arguments you present comes from your "faith" not the argument themselves. I don't know at this point what would suffice as compelling evidence. Still I find Doherty's reading to be quite plausible and his interpretation to be the best fit for those epistle accepted as genuinely from Paul.
The argument about Mark's gospel is not quite as convincing to me, it's a bit harder to follow. It's been awhile and I'm not sure why, I think maybe "midrash" is something I've not quite got a handle on.
From Earl Doherty's Jesus Puzzle website: http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/supp06.htm
In 11:23f, Paul introduces the one scene in all of his letters which seems to lift a curtain upon an incident in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. He tells the Corinthians this story, in order to dissuade them from squabbling over the food and drink at their community’s fellowship meal:
23 For I received from the Lord what also I delivered to you,
that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was delivered up
(most translations choose to render this betrayed
or arrested: see below),
took bread,
24 and having given thanks broke (it) and said:
this is my body, which is for you,
do this in remembrance of me.
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup...
That opening line is very like the one we examined in 1 Corinthians 15:3, only here the ideas are reversed. Now the received idea is the primary one and governs what follows. Are we to allot to this use of paralambano the same meaning as the one arrived at for 15:3? There are several logical and compelling reasons why we should.
Although the words of Jesus at the establishment of the Eucharist may not be part of Paul’s fundamental gospel, we may well suspect that anything he preaches about the Christ would fall within the spirit of Galatians 1:11-12, Paul’s firm declaration that he has received his message from no man. Certainly, his use of paralambano to refer to a revelation a few chapters later, in 15:3, does lend weight to the validity of such an interpretation here. But there are more immediate considerations we can draw on.
First, Paul plainly says that he received this from the Lord. If he is speaking of a passed on tradition from other men, Paul’s words are on the surface illogical, even a falsehood. If other apostles gave him this information, presumably the ones who were present at such a scene, then he did not get it from the Lord. By clearly stressing that the Lord was the source of his information, Paul is denying any intermediate human step. Moreover, if such traditions about a Last Supper (Paul, alone in the New Testament, calls it the Lord’s Supper) were circulating through Christian circles, including Corinth, by means of oral transmission and general knowledge, and were in fact the source of Paul’s own familiarity with them, what kind of impression would Paul be giving his readers if he seemed to be claiming that he knew of these words through some personal revelation?
Perhaps recognizing all this, scholars have long tried to interpret the opening of verse 23 in a different way. We might call it the battle of the prepositions.
For I received from the Lord (apo tou kuriou) . . .
In the Greek of the time, when someone speaks of information received from another as the immediate, direct source, the preposition para is most often used. On the other hand, the preposition apo is most often used to signify the remote, or ultimate source of a piece of information. Thus Paul, they say, if he had meant to say that Jesus had delivered this information to him personally, would have used para. As it is, in using apo, he is referring to Jesus as the originator of these words, as if to say, these words came ultimately from the Lord himself.
Unfortunately for this argument, these different usages were not strict. (See Moulton: A Grammar of New Testament Greek, vol. 1 Prolegomena, p. 237.) Even the New Testament contains apo used in the opposite sense (Colossians 1:17, as you learned from Epaphras, and Matthew 11:29, learn from me.) Thus, there was no guarantee that the Corinthians would have understood such a remote antecedent meaning, or that Paul intended it.
Besides, if Jesus were being referred to only in the sense that he is the ultimate source of the words, this gives Paul’s statement another less than logical cast. If he is going to go on to say that Jesus spoke certain words, why preface it with a separate statement which identifies Jesus as the source of these words? This is at best a very awkward redundancy.
Thus, we must conclude that Paul is saying what the words seem to make him say: that this scene, which he has previously imparted to his readers, was the product of a private vision or inspiration coming from the heavenly Jesus. Once this is acknowledged, the way is open to regarding the scene Paul creates as a myth attached to the spiritual Christ, a myth designed to explain (as many myths do) the origins of a practice within the community, or at least, the origin of the significance that has now been attached to an older practice. To the meal of fellowship which is undoubtedly derived from the traditional Jewish thanksgiving meal, in a version (like the so-called messianic banquet) which has apocalyptic overtones (see 11:26), Paul has overlaid a sacramental significance based on a new interpretation of the meaning of the traditional bread and cup. This meaning is grounded in a mythical scene which may be Paul’s own invention, derived from a perceived personal revelation. The Gospel versions would probably ultimately be traced back to him. (We should also note that the establishment of the Eucharist is missing in other places in the rest of the early Christian record where we would expect to find it, such as the eucharistic prayers in the Didache, chapters 9 and 10, and in Hebrews 9:15-22 and even 7:1-3: see Supplementary Article No. 9: A Sacrifice in Heaven.)
But this sacred meal and the type of sacramentalism it entails, are not of Jewish derivation. Eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Deityof any godwould have been a repugnant and blasphemous concept to any observant Jew, making it certain that an historical Jesus could never have established such a rite or foisted it upon his followers (see Maccoby, Paul and Hellenism, p. 99). Instead, Paul’s sacramental myth is strongly Greek flavored, and his Lord’s Supper is very close to the sacred meals of the Greek cultic mysteries, down to the word he uses, deipnon.
Such a meal signified the union of the initiates with the god of the cult’s worship, and a sharing in his nature and saving actusually an overcoming of death in some way. We know of myths that were attached to such cultic meals. The Sabazius cult observed a communal supper which symbolized the heavenly banquet of the blessed which the initiates could look forward to after death. The cult of Mithras had an origin myth which explained where its sacred meal had come from. After Mithras had slain the bull (the ‘salvific act’ in Mithraism), he and the sun god Helios sealed a covenant by dining together on loaves of breadsome say on the meat of the bull himselfand drinking from cups which contained water and wine mixed. The goddess Isis was looked upon as having personally established the mystery rites associated with her, and this included a sacred meal. None of these gods and their activities were regarded as based in identifiable history
Translators have a tendency to use the terms arrested or betrayed (the latter alluding to Judas) in rendering paradidomi in this part of the verse. This, I would suggest, is governed by Gospel preconceptions. The verb means, in its basic sense, to hand over or deliver up and is a technical term in the context of justice or martyrdom. In the Gospel story it can take on the meaning of arrest or betrayal (as in Mark 14:21), but in Paul there is no need to see it this way. He uses the same verb in Romans 8:32: He (God) did not spare his own Son, but delivered him up for us all. Here it can hardly imply betrayal or arrest. In Ephesians 5:2 and 25 it is Christ who gave himself up on your behalf. No thought of Judas or of an arrest on Passover eve would be present here.
We might also note that the Greek shows a curious use of tenses. The verb was handed over (paredidoto) is in the imperfect, which literally makes the meaning on the night he was being delivered up. This implies that the act of surrender was going on all through the Supper! It seems that Paul could hardly have had the Gospel scene in mind, and scholars who have noted this (e.g., Robertson and Plummer, International Critical Commentary, First Epistle to the Corinthians, p.243) suggest that Paul is taking a broader meaning, perhaps of surrender by the Father as in the Romans passage. Curious, indeed.
Conclusion
When we allow Paul to speak for himself, rather than impose upon him the narrative world of the evangelists, we find a consistent picture throughout the letters. The governing force in his life’s work, as it is with all the competing apostles who roam the byways of the empire preaching the divine Christ, is the power of God’s Spirit, manifested through revelation and a study of scripture. No historical man who had recently begun the movement hovers in the background of Paul’s thought. His gospel comes from God, and its subject matter is the Christ, the intermediary Son who is the hallmark of the religious philosophy of the age.
lfen
This message has been edited by lfen, 08-11-2004 03:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:08 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by General Nazort, posted 08-11-2004 9:09 PM lfen has replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 320 (133031)
08-11-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by lfen
08-11-2004 4:08 AM


Re: Bible is NOT proof
An intersting read from Doherty, as usual. I don't know if his analysis is correct, I need to look up what other scholars say.
But, I really really doubt there is any way he can explain away 1 Cor 15:1-8 by examining the original Greek. And if that is historical, the rest of his arguments crumble.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 4:08 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by lfen, posted 08-11-2004 10:42 PM General Nazort has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 235 of 320 (133047)
08-11-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by General Nazort
08-11-2004 9:09 PM


More Doherty on Paul
General,
Doherty devotes a long analysis to that passage. I've excerpted a portion and also another argument. But after this I'll ask you to go to Doherty's website if you've further questions. I've done enough cutting and pasting. I just lack the scholarship to argue in detail Doherty's premise and he does a very readable job of it on his site.
I'm not sure if Doherty can be directly disproved although the "kata sarka" may be the way. I think it boils down to that there is no way to conclusively decide on the historicist or mythicist position at this time. But the historicist position is also very vague. Much of the gospels comes from the OT and sayings that were also common amonst the cynics. And yes, Doherty goes into the widespread teachings of the cynics and the similiarity with some of the gospel sayings that have been attributed to Q.
A second observation needs to be made about the list of appearances. There is nothing to suggest that, in Paul’s mind, they were not all of the same nature. And since neither Paul himself, nor anyone on his behalf down to the present day, has ever claimed that his seeing of the Christ was anything but a vision of a spiritual figure, this has to imply that Paul regards the other appearances as being in the same category. In other words, they were all revelatory experiences; none were thought of as encounters with a bodily-risen Jesus of Nazareth. (This has recently been recognized by modern liberal scholars such as the Jesus Seminar and John Shelby Spong.)
Indeed, the language Paul uses implies this very meaning. Even the sense of vision may be too strong. In a study of the meaning of ophthe here, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (vol. V, p. 358) points out that in this type of context the word is a technical term for being in the presence of revelation as such, without reference to the nature of its perception. In other words, the seeing may not refer to actual sensory or mental perception. Rather, it may simply be an encounter with the risen Lord who reveals himself...they experienced his presence. If what we have here is more an experience of Christ’s presence than a full-blown hallucinatory vision, this would make it easier to accept that so many individuals and even large groups could imagine they had undergone such an experience.
It is far from clear, therefore, that Paul in 15:5-8 is describing anything more than a series of experiences in which many people, most of them within a group already formed for a religious purpose, felt a conviction of faith in the spiritual Christ, experiences which may well have grown in the telling.
we need to compare ideas expressed by Paul in two different passages, the one here in 1 Corinthians 15:3, and another in Galatians 1:11-12:
For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not the product of men. For I did not receive (parelabon, from paralambano) it from any man, nor was I taught it, but (I received it) through a revelation of/about Jesus Christ.
Paul could not make himself any clearer. The gospel he preaches is not something passed on through human channels. He did not receive it from any man. If the verb received in 1 Corinthians 15:3 is claimed to represent such a thing, then the statements in the two passages stand in direct contradiction to one another. Given his passionate declaration in Galatians, it is not likely that Paul would turn around and say to the Corinthians that he in fact got his gospel from men.
If Paul did not receive it from any man it does appear that he has no knowledge of a chain of transmission on the earth from an earthly teacher to disciples. I've said that Doherty's analysis of Paul is his most convincing. Mark is more speculative and I know so little about midrash.
I had always thought in terms of a historic teacher who was deified after his death by his followers, but I'm now leaning towards Doherty's thesis.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 320 (135129)
08-19-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by lfen
08-11-2004 10:42 PM


Re: More Doherty on Paul
Hey Ifen.
I found a website that seems to be a good counter to Doherty's mythicist theories.
Here it is: http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_D01_FYCBS.html
I have not had time to read much, but one interesting thing I found is the explanation of the "high-context" society of ancient times, in the "20 pound gorilla" sectio. Writers assumed that readers knew the context and background for their stories, so they did not bother to fill in background details. This is why Paul did not bother to give background details about Jesus - he assumed his readers already knew all that.
An example of this mindset is Jesus and the woman at the well - this story involves tons of background information that we generally don't know today but people back then did.

If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4708 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 237 of 320 (135159)
08-19-2004 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by General Nazort
08-19-2004 12:15 AM


Re: More Doherty on Paul
Thanks, I'll check it out.
lfen

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 238 of 320 (135235)
08-19-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Hangdawg13
06-30-2004 1:11 AM


Re: There isn't any proof Jesus ever existedI
Well, Jesus didn't actually fullfilly the prophecies needed for being the Jewish Messiah, you know.
And, of course, when ti comes to the 'prophecies' that are claimed by gospels, anybody can write someone to make it appear to fullfill prophecies, particularly when they have a book that that claim predicts it, and quote mine to make him appear to fullfill them. Matthew in particular did this, since many of the 'prophecies' are mistranslations,
items taken out of context and a miss understanding of the Jewish scripture. Matthew didn't even get the geography of the region correct in some places.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 239 of 320 (135238)
08-19-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by custard
06-30-2004 3:00 AM


However, we do have indication of important figures in Jerusalum at the time. Philo Judaes of Alexandra, who was very connected with jersualum, and discussed the Essenes, and Pontious Pilate to a large extent, did not mention Jesus.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 240 of 320 (135239)
08-19-2004 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by custard
06-30-2004 4:31 AM


Well, first point.. none fo those were contemporary. The earliest was Josephus, and antiquties 18 is very suspect.
Tactillus is wriging in the second century, and chrustus is a Greek name, not Christ.
The talmud was being written after 150 C.E to about 400 C.E. There were many Yeshuas, and if you notice, it said 'hanged' not 'cruxified'. I believe this one was refering to one that was executed for sourcery 100 years before the "CHrist" myth.

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