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Author | Topic: Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Or is it the words of men? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Other religions have oracles, only the Bible has prophecy. Too funny but you are just showing your ignorance yet again. Many religions specifically say they have prophecy; I even gave you a specific example with the Ragnark. Do you know anything about history?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Only the Bible has genuine prophecy. You keep making that claim yet never offer any support for your assertion. Why is it we have never been able to get a Biblical Christian to show us even a single example of "genuine prophecy" that can stand up to examination? You keep making that claim but always refuse to provide Chapter and Verse so that the claim might be examined. There is even a whole thread (Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?) devoted to looking at such claimed prophecy but unfortunately not one has turned out to be supportable so far. Perhaps you have other examples of the prophecy you claim is there and we could take a look at them too?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: We know that debunkers like you just make up your own stuff and insist you're right, just as you've now got Golffly parroting, lie after lie after lie, and nobody can win a debate with such frauds. I've argued all these things with Orthodox Jews and they're better at it than you are and still as wrong as wrong can be. Sorry, not willing to put myself through such lies any more. People who have a sincere desire to know the truth, that the Bible is the only source of genuine prophecy, can find it without my help. So the simple truth is that once again you cannot or will not offer anything to support your assertions. Got it. But just for the record there is the thread ( Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? ) and if you actually had any support then it would seem you could provide at least a single example. The sad part and why you should be pitied is that despite what you claim I do, what I actually do is post just what the Bible stories really say so that everyone can see whether or not what I claim is a lie.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So you claim Faith but that is not what the Bible Actually says is it? Do I have to post the passages here yet again?
You know that I can and I will Faith.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Except of course the fact that he tells it at least three times to various people and it was the most dramatic event of his life that completely changed him from a Pharisee to a preacher of the gospel. Again, not to believe him is to impose your own arrogant prejudice on him. Except Faith, according to the Bible he cannot tell the story the same way twice in a row. As I pointed out back in Message 1841 the stories are filled with contradictions. Two were likely written down within a year of each other but still for being the most dramatic event of his life seem like not one event but two totally different ones. The accounts found in Acts are not first person accounts told by Paul but rather the author of Acts writing dialog for the Paul character in the narrative. Those two accounts also vary with the later definitely being written to play to a Jewish audience. Shall I post all of them here again or can you just use the link to see what the Bible actually says Faith as opposed to what you claim it says? If the Bible really were the inerrant word of God wouldn't you think God could get the story straight?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Ringo writes: NoNukes writes:
That's exactly my point: to anybody but the husband, they pretty much are. Wives are a lot of things, but one thing they are not is fungible. Henny Youngman anybody? Like Jesus, another nice Jewish boy. Edited by jar, : hit wrong keyAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: The very evidence that the account is true, that Paul tells the story slightly differently each time, is treated as evidence that it's false. Have you ever told a story about yourself in exactly the same way twice? No, but Paul has to or he's lying. And as usual you are inventing contradictions where they should be read as building on one another. Thanks for providing yet more evidence that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God Faith. Knew I could count on you. Let's look yet again at what the Bible actually says Faith. The earliest account is from First Corinthians. It is very simple and straight forward and just says Paul claims to have seen Jesus after his death.
quote: Just a simple story, no one else with him, no voices, no light, no struck blind; just a claim to have seen Jesus and note that he is only repeating what is said in scripture of the day; no revelation. About a year later there is the account found in Galatians.
quote: Now the story has been elaborated a little, Instead of preaching what he learned from Scripture he claims a revelation of Jesus Christ and that he was called by God, not Jesus to preach about Jesus. But still no voices, no lights, no companions, no struck blind, no vision regained ... While elaboration and adding elements to a story is perfectly normal for humans, it does destroy any claim of inerrancy. But wait, there's more. Then we come to the hearsay reports found in Acts. In Acts we see the author writing dialog for the Paul Character that again expands on the earlier simple tale and adds all kinds of woo factors that just were not in the original ones, the light and voices and blindness and witnesses that see different things in the two tales and do different things in the two tales plus the later account is definitely tailored to play well to a Jewish audience.
quote: quote: So yes, humans do vary stories when they retell them and elaborate and exaggerate and make stuff up and embellish but those are all human characteristics not of inerrancy. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin: form ---> fromAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The whole joke called Biblical Inerrancy is a fairly modern concept (mostly 70s) that was the creation of a very small, very human conclave of Evangelical Marketeers. It was not anything well thought out and was infact produced at a three day Fly in to O'Hare (good Catholic boy) Regency. It was not subject to testing or debate or examination by any who had not already made up their minds. All the attendees had decided before the conference had even started that the goal and conclusion would be a "Statement" affirming inerrancy.
Like most of Faith's posts the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy offers no support for its position and simply says "here is the final word". It just claims that the original autographs are inerrant and even if there are no original autographs it don't matter. It's an interesting look into the mind and so called thought patterns of the "Biblical Christian" Hucksters. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin, dropped a "t"Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: I see no contradictions in the different accounts. Does Acts 9:7 say:
quote: Does Acts 22:9 say:
quote: Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: It is obvious that any book known is and was written by men. The question we are left with,in my mind, is the motives and passions of such men. Additionally, it has been tentatively proven that the Bible has inconsistencies---but how would we determine errors? We would need to have a "truth" to compare them with. "Truth" is not a very important aspect in most cases. Reality and facts are. What is needed is not "Truth" as a comparison but rather facts and reality. We determine errors many ways. One is to compare and contrast as I did in Message 1880. Here are two mutually exclusive statements from the same document. I know of no way to tell whether either is true but since they are mutually exclusive then at least one if not both must be false.
Phat writes: Is truth alive? Jesus once told Pilate that He represented the definition of truth. Well, no he did not. Read what you quoted. There Jesus only claims to act as a witness but it says nothing about what is true or false.
Phat writes: In the context of spirituality, is truth eternal? Unchanging? Orthodox? Or does truth come from the ever evolving minds of men? Too funny. Are Crystal Pyramids in vogue this week or is it Dancing naked in the Oak Groves? When it comes to spirituality one thing is abundantly evidenced and that is truth constantly changes.
Phat writes: Have any teachings been found which supercede the teachings that humans glean from Bible Studies? Can anyone present evidence of such newer teachings so that we may discuss them? Of course. There is the Eight Fold Path, the writings of Confucius and Mencius, the Vedas. the ...
Phat writes: Words are "a sound or combination of sounds that has a meaning and is spoken or written". Did words exist before humans evolved enough to utter them? Where did these words come from? Of course words did not exist before they were invented. Words are created by men.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith writes: Yes, I didn't notice that at first but it's exactly the sort of discrepancy that is either the result of Paul's not knowing exactly what the other men experienced or forgetting it, which is not of any importance to the main message, or more likely he's saying in Acts 9 that they heard an undecipherable voice, and in Acts 22 that they didn't know what the voice said, which would be the same thing. The way I may hear voices outside my door in the walkway but not be able to make out what they are saying. But the Bible does not say what you claim it might say. Does Acts 9:7 say:
quote: Does Acts 22:9 say:
quote: First, regardless of whether or not either version is true, it is conclusive evidence that the Bible is not Inerrant. But remember that Paul is not saying anything in Acts. Acts is some author or authors writing dialog for the characters in the stories. And neither story shows any resemblance to the stories Paul wrote in First Corinthians or in Galatians as I point out in Message 1867. The obvious conclusion is that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God and unless you can offer convincing evidence to refute that conclusion the case is pretty much closed.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You have sa very silly idea of what "inerrant" means. It just means that we can trust it to tell us the truth about God, and only the originals are considered to be perfectly inerrant anyway. Well no, that is NOT what inerrant means and we have no originals and I covered the CSBI nonsense that is Biblical Inerrancy in Message 1872. Item 4 of that silly document says:
quote: The stories of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus could only be God-given if the god is one that can't keep facts straight and makes up embellishments over time. The two accounts that Paul most likely wrote show NO resemblance to the fanciful stories found in Acts. AbE: The CSBI is a great example of the basic dishonesty of Biblical Christianity. A bunch of the leading lights of the Christian Cult of Ignorance flew into Chicago to sign a statement of faith. There was no attempt to determine truth or even accuracy. There was no presentation of evidence that might refute the position, just a great example of confirmation bias in action. Edited by jar, : see AbEAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: What you quote does not require the kind of inerrancy you claim. It says what I said it says: we are to trust its teaching, about God, about history, etc. But we cannot trust its teaching about the history of Paul's conversion can we? It does not seem to be able to get that history down the same in four different accounts.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: The four accounts are perfectly in accord with one another except for the one phrase about hearing or not hearing the voice which probably means hearing but not understanding. And this is such a secondary point, about what men with Paul would have told him they experienced, that has absolutely NO consequences for what Paul himself experienced, that you are just bending over backwards to smear the Bible and Bible believers, and you WILL be held accountable for that. Again Faith, as I have pointed out several times in this very thread, that is simply not true. Read what I wrote and documented in Message 1867. The four account are not in perfect accord with one another.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Among the strange mistakes jar keeps making is that he completely overlooked Paul's account to Agrippa in Acts 26. He also claimed that Paul himself didn't give the accounts in Acts but he did, in both Acts 22 and Acts 26; it is only in Acts 9 that Luke tells the story in his words rather than Paul's. So let's look at what Acts 26 says:
quote: So here is yet another different version of the story, again, no blindness, no companions on the road with him. Faith I'm not sure how adding yet another version of the story helps your case since even if they are Paul's words being reported by the author of Acts, they are yet again another different set of words.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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