Summations Only

No, the utterance was prophetic no matter what Abraham consciously meant by it, as evidenced by the appearance of the ram in the thicket.Duh.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith, the way to prove that the text says what it says is to quote text along with your line of reasoning. The way for me to rebut you is to quote text and provide superior or more persuasive reading or to rebut your reasoning.Here again you indulge in the delusion that you are merely reading the text and reaching the only possible conclusion and that the people who disagree with you have no case. I'm sorry that you feel frustrated, but your frustration is of your own making. Get a better argument.

Faith, if you think you can support any Old Testament prophecy or even reference to Jesus then maybe you can present the chapter and verse over at Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? so we can examine it.

Now how does that prove your point that it was prophetic regarding Jesus. Answer: It does not. How does that help show that Abraham was anticipating resurrection. Answer: It does not and is supportive on a quite different conclusion. I accept that the story describes Abraham's faith. And God may well have provided a ram to vindicate Abraham's statement.But the reason for exploring the intent of the statement is to determine whether or not we can infer that Abraham was expecting Isaac to be resurrected. And the answer is that we cannot. In fact, Abraham's statement is inconsistent with the notion that he was expecting resurrection. There is, in fact, nothing in Genesis 22 that helps us understand Abraham's thinking on that point.Again, yes there is Hebrews 11, but the author of Hebrews does not seem to have any more information about Abraham than is present in Genesis. Perhaps I have been disrespectful or insulting in my participation? I apologize for any disrespect of you personally that I am unaware of, but not for my disagreement with your interpretation.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

So are you saying that Hebrews 11:19 is a lie? I didn't think you'd do that but I guess I've been getting you wrong.The comment about the lamb doesn't anticipate resurrection, I merely said I thought it could be fit into that expectation, which it can if we understand that Isaac's resurrection wouldn't accomplish anything anyway as Jesus' of course did, so another sacrifice could be expected, which I just suggested in a recent post.In any case the evidence that Abraham was expecting God to raise Isaac from the dead has not gone away.The lamb was an unconscious prophecy of the ram, and also a conscious prophecy of Christ.For you to deny that Abraham expected Isaac's resurrection makes absolutely no sense and you haven't said one thing to support your rejection of the idea, whereas my argument still stands.There is notrhing complicated about genesis 22, it's a straightforward narrative. If you think I've misread it then YOU quote what you think disputes me.Yes, you've been very disrespectful.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Thanks for the link. Thanks for the effort you put forth there.
In my opinion, it is absolutely superb!

That is outright wrong.
No nukes has displayed some admirable patience. You have hurled the insults.
How he maintains composure when you've displayed such bias, unknowing, fantasy is truly remarkable. I don't know how he does it.
I think No Nukes has displayed far more integrity and composure than one could rightly expect from any good person.
Kudos to No Nukes.Edited by Golffly, : No reason given.

Well thank you. You notice members of the CCoI still claim there are prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament but it seems they have learned not to mention them by Chapter and Verse here since I will post the actual content for all to see. Just this week I heard one of the Christian con men on TV claim that there were over 300 such prophecies but so far I have never found even one that can stand up to examination.It is simply more evidence that the Bible is simply the words of men. That does not mean it is false or worthless but rather that theology like Faith tries to market just diminishes the worth of scripture and makes god look stupid.It is a failure of Christianity to actually teach what is written and the history and context needed.

No I did not call it a lie and I'm not doing so here. I am not saying that you are lying when you agree with Hebrews 11. However, the author of Hebrews 11 is simply providing an interpretation of scripture that we can all read for ourselves. And I disagree with his interpretation. Put into context, Hebrews 11 makes a persuasive (IMO) argument about faith which even a disagreement about Abraham example does not diminish. Outside of discussions like this one, I would not even bother with this issue.On the other hand, for you inerrant literalists, which is the topic under discussion, even the smallest nit pick is a cause for accusations that this or that person is not a Christian.So far the only thing lies I've pointed out were those told by Isaac and Abraham. Yes. that's what you thought. However I've presented an argument that it does not fit. So far you haven't managed anything that looks like a rebuttal. That's not correct. I've made a couple of arguments, so no your argument does not "still stand". I've repeatedly pointed on the areas of your posts that are merely your interpretation rather than facts detailed in the Bible. I agree that there is nothing complicated about Genesis 22. You seem to be the only one here who admits to not understanding any part of it. In my opinion, the reason for your misunderstanding is that the facts do not support your conclusion. I don't believe I've done anything more than comment on your posts and avoid getting personal. In particular I might note that you are by far the person who spends the most effort dispensing insults and name calling in this thread.I don't owe you any more respect than giving your idea a thorough evidence and logical argument based thrashing if I disagree with them. Respect does not mean agreeing with you.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

No prophesy to Jesus in OT. None. Definitively agree and you dismantled it beautifully!
Some other things, we might not agree on. Doesn't make me right though. :-)))

Hebrews 11 is the word of God just as Genesis 22 is. For you to argue this way at this point just makes the whole discussion worthless. Over eighty useless posts by the usual suspects against my perfectly reasonable Message 1502. What a waste of time.Oh you've been very disrespectful in many ways.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Not an unexpected statement. But of course not an argument that carries any weight here when the subject matter in question is the Bible's inerrancy?As I've already stated, I don't have any problems with Hebrews 11 or its inspirational nature. But inspiration does not prevent human beings from making errors. Being after God's own heart did not stop David from sleeping with Bathsheba and it did not keep men from injecting their own thoughts and superstitions into the text. And yes we can find those things there.If you want to maintain otherwise, then maybe demonstrating that ought to be part of your presentation. I agree that continuing your present line of argument is likely a waste of your time. You aren't going to be able to demonstrate inerrancy simply by insisting on it.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

I do get sick of making perfectly reasonable orthodox Bible-based posts only to get them trashed by the ********** and ******* and ******** and ***********************s here. I despise this place. I've GOT to get out of here. I wish I could CENSOR EvC off the internet so I'd never have to see it again. Just go *poof* the lot of you.

And that is why Biblical Christianity is a threat to mankind and needs to be feared and constantly watched; and as Faith has said they think it is alright to censor and control and oppress any thoughts that might disagree with them.

How very christian of you.I can not understand the hate toward people that disagree with you. You must be very insecure in your beliefs and your self. You are worthy of pity, nothing more.