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Author Topic:   Creation
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 1482 (782428)
04-22-2016 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


Apparently you wanted this to be treated as a topic proposal to be promoted to Bible Study, but you have begun it in the Coffee House forum instead of the Proposed Topics forum.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 1482 (783014)
05-02-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 11:48 AM


Implications of Gap Theory
I can't possibly assess the claims about what the Hebrew says. What matters to me is the theological implications of Gap Theory for the YEC point of view. Is there a post on this thread that explains it that you could point me to, and if not would you or someone else please explain it?

Thanks.

ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 1482 (783019)
05-02-2016 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 1:10 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I guess you missed my edit:

ABE: I'm adding this quite a bit later so hope it gets seen. Of course I know it's an argument for the Old Earth, but I'm thinking of how it affects theological points like death occurring at the Fall and not before, and the reality and timing of the Flood.

These are the questions that matter most to me and I think most YECs.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 1482 (783024)
05-02-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by NoNukes
05-02-2016 1:31 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Please don't refer me to a link. If you can't explain it clearly then I'll wait for kbertsche.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 1482 (783054)
05-02-2016 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Thanks. Disappointing to find one's heroes in the wrong, as of course I do, on both counts. Alas.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 1482 (783056)
05-02-2016 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Doing a rough research on the theologians you listed I found J Vernon McGee on a video sounding like he was in the process of changing his mind from gap theory to "this new theory" which he doesn't present clearly but is probably something a lot like YEC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5NbHibvKpA He says he was "brought up" in the point of view he defends, meaning gap theory, as many of his generation and earlier no doubt were, as that was the period when evolution was most aggressively challenging theologians who unfortunately -- in my opinion -- capitulated on the age of the Earth at least.

Spurgeon was thoroughly nineteenth century, Scofield, Barnhouse and Ironside died before the YEC people started their work. These are the names I know best, haven't checked out the other two.

I didn't intend to start a discussion about this but since I found the video of McGee I thought you might be interested.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 1482 (783062)
05-02-2016 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
05-02-2016 3:21 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
This is to kbertsche maybe more than to ICANT

ICANT, I didn't answer this post of yours because I have a lot of trouble understanding it. I can't make sense out of your remarks about the man created from the dust, or the way you put things together in the post you wrote to NoNukes above.

The best I could possibly do with all these different views of the first part of Genesis is MAYBE consider that there is a gap between verses 1 and 2, which you say you don't believe, and that's because I have had questions myself about when Lucifer rebelled against God and how that event fits into the Creation Week.

I can't judge the arguments about the Hebrew, whether verse 2 is describing the earliest state of the Earth as formless and void, as it is normally read by YECs and most theologians I'm familiar with; or if it's saying the Earth BECAME formless and void, as I've understood Gap Theory maintains, the idea being that something violent happened to put the Earth in that condition, which some attribute to the fall of Lucifer and his angels.

Otherwise I read Genesis straight through without needing to make any adjustments for different meanings than the straightforward narrative I'm familiar with. Genesis 1 outlines the steps of Creation; Genesis 1 focuses in on the creation of Adam...

But there are some interesting questions about that possible gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, which are questions about what happened when Lucifer fell. I don't see any justification in such a gap for evolutionary theory myself, and there's no particular amount of time it would add anyway, just whatever amount of time is necessary to allow for the events surrounding Lucifer's fall. I don't know if that's hundreds of years or what, but more than that shouldn't be needed.

And again I don't see any justification for evolution in the addition of whatever amount of time might be involved. Nothing has been created yet but the "heavens and the earth." Not the light or the plants or animals or heavenly objects or humanity, nothing. The whole drama of Lucifer's fall could be going on in the "heavens" rather than on earth.

So I could see that it's after that drama runs its course that the Creation countdown of the seven evenings and mornings begins with the creation of light.

There are no plants or animals before that, so no justification for any idea of a lengthy evolution or of death to the animals. Plants of course die, but they aren't life in the sense animals are. This is more related to kbertsche's arguments than yours I'm afraid.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 149 of 1482 (783093)
05-03-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by kbertsche
05-02-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I read the Wikipedia article on gap theory but I have a question I'm hoping you can answer easily, since it seems to be hard to find the answer online without more reading than my eyes can tolerate, and I don't want to hang up this thread:

I just want to know what believers in Gap Theory think occurred during the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Thanks.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 162 of 1482 (783505)
05-05-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 4:30 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I haven't been following all of this but as a result of this thread I have become interested in Gap Theory and have been reading up on it myself. I'm still particularly interested in the interpretations about the fall of Satan, and not too likely to be persuaded that it has much to do with present-day Geology but we'll see as I read more. I am right now beginning to read two books by believers in Gap Theory, Earth's Earliest Ages by G. H. Pember, and The Invisible War by Barnhouse. I'm looking forward to a good spooky read.

NN writes:

most people interpret Jeremiah to be warning of the future

But it does seem to have a special place in Gap Theory. For instance it is referred to in this discussion of Gap Theory at number "5. Other Passages" and also down further at 10. The following is from number 5:

In addition, Isaiah 34:11 and Jeremiah 4:23-26, the only other instances the phrase without form and void is used, clearly refers to some type of divine judgment. Hence, Genesis 1:2 must also be a reference to judgment.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 163 of 1482 (783512)
05-05-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
05-03-2016 12:17 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
When you have to take pieces parts of stories out of context to support your position it makes little sense. If the Bible was inspired by God was God incapable of inspiring writing that does not require a patchwork quilt of pieces parts to support what the God wanted communicated?

But this is how many doctrines are constructed, the most familiar one being the construction of the Trinity from dozens of different references to Father, Son and Holy Ghost throughout the Old and New Testaments. Once you see all the parts of the Trinity it should be clear that the complaint that it's not in the Bible is complete foolishness.

This demonstrates that the entire Bible works together to reveal God's plan, and that is in fact the opposite of what you are saying: it shows that God is overseeing the Bible since no single writer has any idea about how these verses are going to come together in the end; only God does.

Interestingly I found D.G. Barnhouse discussing this at the beginning of his book The Invislble War where he's going to be discussing the fall of Lucifer. I know you have no respect for any of the theologians revered by traditional Christians but perhaps someone else will find it illuminating:

Barnhouse writes:

The proper method of Bible study, then, is analogous to the putting together of the puzzle. For any given doctrinal subject, read the entire volume, selecting every verse that bears on the truth under study. Put all of these passages together, and the synthesis of the result is the true Bible doctrine on the question with which you are concerned. A verse from Moses, and one from Ezekiel, and one from Paul, put side by side, each illuminating the others, fit into the perfect pattern of the whole design and give the whole light which God has been pleased to reveal on that particular theme....

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 1482 (783515)
05-05-2016 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by jar
05-05-2016 8:17 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
The Trinity is in the Bible and that's what was codified at the conferences. If you were right it wouldn't be possible to construct it from all the different passages that define Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but it is very clearly there, very consistently, and I'm now looking forward to finding out from two books by gap theorists how different passages illuminate the activities of Satan in this world and from the beginning of the creation.

I added this to the post above after you answered it:

This demonstrates that the entire Bible works together to reveal God's plan, and that is in fact the opposite of what you are saying: it shows that God is overseeing the Bible since no single writer has any idea about how these verses are going to come together in the end; only God does.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 1482 (783523)
05-05-2016 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 10:00 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
The method of construction you describe is extremely problematic. It is in fact exactly the way both YEC and Gap theologists come up with incompatible views of the Bible. This very discussion recommends against proceeding as you suggest.

Oh absolute flaming nonsense! Do you deny the Trinity? Do you deny how it is derived?

I don't know yet what Gap Theory puts together for what purpose so I don't have an opinion about it. But I don't see anything YECs do that justifies your complaint.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 169 of 1482 (783525)
05-05-2016 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jar
05-05-2016 10:06 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
There is no reason whatever why anyone would have believed in a Trinity if it weren't that they found it in the Bible. It's in fact awfully hard to persuade people of it so your idea that scriptures were picked to justify a preconceived idea is nonsense,.

And the passages that ARE in the Bible speak so clearly and unequivocally to the Trinity as it was subsequently defined in the Councils, it's impossible to suggest that anybody just poked around and found vague statements to support a preconceived wish. There's nothing vague about them.'

And all that being the case, only God could have designed His word to reveal doctrines that depend on many different writers in different times for it all to come together as the coherent whole it is.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 1482 (783537)
05-06-2016 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by jar
05-05-2016 10:21 PM


Trinity a doctrine found scattered in the Bible
But it really is vague as I have shown you the Holy spirit included based only on two unrelated passages; being included in the baptismal forms and based on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgivable.

If you are saying (and it's not clear what you are saying) that the Biblical references to the Holy Spirit that include it in the Trinity are limited to only those two passages, you are very wrong. Here is a typical outllne of the Biblical sources of the concepts that form the Trinity, and the sources for the Holy Spirit are fairly extensive:

The Holy Spirit Is God
A. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18

B. Has the incommunicable attributes of God 1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11

C. Involved in all the works of God 1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 1:20; Luke 1:35
3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27

D. Is a person 1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
2. Is the "Helper" a. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
b. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
c. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
d. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29; 3:6, 3:13, 3:22.
5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons a. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
b. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 2:33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
c. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 3:19;

And that's just references to the Holy Spirit as God; the next section after this one shows how Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate Persons as well as God.
cfm

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 564 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 1482 (783597)
05-07-2016 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by ICANT
05-06-2016 9:13 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Hello ICANT
I just don't follow your thinking at all. I get that you don't believe in gap theory because you keep saying it but you also seem to make a big distinction of some sort between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Beyond that I just don't get what you are saying about any of it. You seem to make passages normally read as future into descriptions of the past. But I'm not sure any of this describes what you think so I shouldn't even try to say.

Gap Theory is at least a common enough idea and held by enough known theologians to be worth learning about. I probably won't agree with it as the answer to the science challenges, but it's interesting to think of there having been a period hinted at in Genesis 1:1 that existed before the six-day Creation began as recorded from Genesis 1:2 on, in which the drama of Lucifer/Satan occurred.

Is the view of creation you are talking about your own reading of the Bible or are there any theologians who also have that view?


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