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Author
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Topic: Dear fellow christian, judge not lest you be judged
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
And I'm not interested in getting the last word, I'm interested in you not weaseling out of this one. Especially because I fully expect that a month or so down the line, you'll be harping on about Biblical prophecies as if this conversation never happened, telling us all over again that there's simply no prophecy that would hold water with us.
So go to the other thread. Give me one Biblical prophecy that holds up. Just one. Dan, as much as I would love to go to that other thread, and debate the rules all over again, you full well know that I have no leg to stand on over there because I agreed to abiding by the rules in that thread. Since my word cannot be broken without renouncing it, I would be arguing in the wrong place. As for biblical prophecies, if you read this thread you will find many - which are even probably valid according to your rules. So I am satisfied that 1. You can have examples that suffice even your rules, and that 2. I have understood your reasons. However, I am not obliged to heed man's rules over God's. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-20-2004 03:21 PM
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Dan, as much as I would love to go to that other thread, and debate the rules all over again, you full well know that I have no leg to stand on over there because I agreed to the rules in that thread. Mike, you have no leg to stand on over here. So what's the difference? I'm not asking you to debate the rules... you tried that here, and it didn't hold up. (No matter how many times you said "but they're true!") I'm asking for a prophecy that meets them. Hell, if you want to take one more post out (just one post!) to give me that one prophecy that holds up to critical analysis, I'm sure Moose'll be cool.
As for biblical prophecies, if you read this thread you will find many - which are even probably valid according to your rules. I read it. They're not. If I'm wrong, please point out the one that holds up.
You can have examples that suffice even your rules Really? Then it should be really easy for you to give us an example of one. So frikkin' do it already.
However, I am not obliged to heed man's rules over God's. I'll make you a deal... if God shows up and starts posting, we'll play by his rules. But as long as it's men having a conversation, how about we try conversing as men, huh?
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Mike, you have no leg to stand on over here. So what's the difference? Not so, I have provided my argument. We were talking about Christ prophecised;
Isaiah; He was wounded and crushed because of our sins;
by taking our punishment
he made us completely well All of us were like sheep that had wandered off
We had each gone our own way
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deserved Apart from that, I'm not sure what else you seek of me, like Shraff, I'm sure you'll say they sat down and made the NT correlate with the Jewish bible.
I'm not asking you to debate the rules... you tried that here, and it didn't hold up. (No matter how many times you said "but they're true!") I'm asking for a prophecy that meets them. My friend, you would have it that no prophecy will meet them, vague or specific. THAT is the problem - you, an unbeliever, agree with the rules, and also unbelievers made them. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-20-2004 04:04 PM
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
We were talking about Christ prophecised And Christ is, of course, confirmed only within the Bible. Which means no extra-biblical corroboration. (Rule #4. Did you even read them before disagreeing with them so vehemently?) Which means we are left only with the Bible's word that the Bible is in fact true. And that's supposed to be a valid prophecy?
Apart from that, I'm not sure what else you seek of me, like Shraff, I'm sure you'll say they sat down and made the NT correlate with the Jewish bible. It's quite probable that they did. But it doesn't really matter one way or the other. We have no way of knowing that the events in the NT even happened apart from faith. Which means, no, it's not a valid prophecy, because we have no confirmation on the fulfillment of the prophecy. I'm sure you believe it on the word of the Bible alone. And more power to you. But so what?
My friend, you would have it that no prophecy will meet them, vague or specific. Repeat this a few more times. That'll make it true. We've told you several times what would qualify. You've failed to either present a logical reason why the rules we laid out don't work (your only arguments thus far being "but they're true!" and "well, you're an unbeliever",) or present a set of your own rules, or provide a prophecy that meets the rules we laid out. And yet you keep lobbing the accusation that we just don't want any prophecies to qualify.
THAT is the problem - you, an unbeliever, agree with the rules, and also unbelievers made them. I see. In order to analyze the Bible, you must already believe in the Bible. It's sad that the Bible is so unable to stand on its own merits. I wouldn't think it needed a handicap like that.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
We've told you several times what would qualify. You've failed to either present a logical reason why the rules we laid out don't work (your only arguments thus far being "but they're true!" and "well, you're an unbeliever",) Who are you to make the rules as to what will qualify? I have presented a reason. In trying to show what is valid, you might dismiss that which is true. That means, that no biblical prophecy - according to your rules, are valid, and therefore - people shall also think they are untrue because it's easy to confuse valid and true.. Just look at this; " And Christ is, of course, confirmed only within the Bible. Which means no extra-biblical corroboration. (Rule #4 " Exactly. You will happily dismiss the whole bible BECAUSE of your rules. And what - you want me to say, " yeah sure - none of 'em are valid dudeguy, now pass me the salt "......Well, no Dan - I can't do that, I believe your rules are; 1. Made by none-believers who have doubt. and 2. Designed biasedly because duh - none-believers made them.  . For example, r u even considering that infact there were sixty odd different biblical authors? - How about the Gospel of Peter then Dan? Is that out of the bible? Because that also shows how Christ suffered, and confirms my prophecy for Isaiah, yet I have a niggling feeling that you'll find another rule shortly - to do away with that example also - lest it be true. I'll find the link to Peter if you want. Is that independent verification, a Gospel outside of the bible? 
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Who are you to make the rules as to what will qualify? Someone reading the Bible, and attempting to analyze it. Don't like 'em? Point out the flaws or present your own.
I have presented a reason. In trying to show what is valid, you might dismiss that which is true. Is there a whistling in your head on a windy day? Honest, I'm curious.
WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT DOES NOT MATTER. A statement can be true, and still not qualify as a prophecy, for reasons shown in previous posts. (That you have yet to address.)
people shall also think they are untrue because it's easy to confuse valid and true.. Great. Between the two of us, is there any such confusion? If not, what's your problem? We're the ones discussing this.
Exactly. You will happily dismiss the whole bible BECAUSE of your rules. No, only those that cannot be confirmed outside of the Bible. For instance, if the wars/rumors referred to a specific war, there would be confirmation! We could point to the specific wars and rumors! Wow, see how simple that is? (I'm guessing not, but hope springs eternal.) And I notice you don't argue the reasoning behind eliminating those with no extra-Biblical corroboration... only complain that it happens. Interesting.
Made by none-believers who have doubt. So? Once again, the Bible needs the handicap of pre-existing belief?
Designed biasedly Cool, then it should be easy for you to point out the logical flaws, or at least present an unbiased version. Let's hear it.
How about the Gospel of Peter then Dan? Is that out of the bible? Is one of the Gospels outside the Bible. Do you honestly need this answered? If so, I'll get the handpuppets.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Is one of the Gospels outside the Bible. Actually, several Gospels are outside the Bible. And even that depends on which canon of which church you're talking about. The Gospel of Thomas is one, the Secret Peter is another as is the Gospel of James. The Gospel of John books 1, 2 & 3 are included in some canon but 2&3 are not in others.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 218 of 241 (143440)
09-20-2004 6:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 217 by jar
09-20-2004 6:06 PM
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Thanks Jar, I was reading your link, the Gospel of Peter, but I can't find where you put it. Ho hum. Bad memory.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by jar, posted 09-20-2004 6:06 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 224 by jar, posted 09-20-2004 6:26 PM | | mike the wiz has replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Message 219 of 241 (143441)
09-20-2004 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 217 by jar
09-20-2004 6:06 PM
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Actually, several Gospels are outside the Bible. And even that depends on which canon of which church you're talking about. But would we consider those that were lopped out as apocrypha as extra-biblical corroboration? Well, duh, no. The decision of churches to ignore it hardly means that it's not part of the original tale.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by jar, posted 09-20-2004 6:06 PM | | jar has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
WHETHER IT IS TRUE OR NOT DOES NOT MATTER. Your under the impression, that I am ignoring what you say. I am not, but to some people (me) - we see vague prophecies as valid and true.
Is one of the Gospels outside the Bible.
Do you honestly need this answered? If so, I'll get the handpuppets. I'm still lookinf for Jar's link, but there are Gospels outside of the bible, and they do mention Jesus. Anyway - we're still off-topic, this is going nowhere.
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
I am not, but to some people (me) - we see vague prophecies as valid and true. Some stuff will happen. A guy will be there. Or not. Worship me.
I'm still lookinf for Jar's link, but there are Gospels outside of the bible, and they do mention Jesus. See my last post.
Anyway - we're still off-topic, this is going nowhere. Fine. Present a valid prophecy and we'll call it a day. Or heck... agree to stop this crap about people just not wanting any prophecy to qualify (when you yourself are unable to present a valid one) and we'll call it a day.
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
You say you require independent verification - something outside of the bible, they are outside of the bible. So, you see, my prediction came true, that u would find another reason to say " all bible prophecy is untrue/invalid ". You prove my point.
The decision of churches to ignore it hardly means that it's not part of the original tale. but like it or not, the Gospel of Peter is not in the bible, therefore, my exampled prophecy passes. This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 09-20-2004 05:16 PM
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
You say you require independent verification - something outside of the bible, they are outside of the bible. So, you see, my prediction came true, that u would find another reason to say " all bible prophecy is untrue/invalid ". You prove my point. Mike, how is a gospel that was lopped out by the church outside the Bible? It comes from the same source. It's like me getting my buddy Phil to swear I'm the messiah, so that I can say "what? It's not me saying it!" The Church now choosing to ignore it doesn't mean it's not from the Bible. If I tear a chapter out of my copy of Gone With the Wind, it doesn't become a separate book. This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 09-20-2004 05:21 PM
"Good evening. I'm playing the role of Jesus; a man once portrayed on the big screen by Jeffery Hunter. You may remember him as the actor who was replaced by William Shatner on Star Trek. Apparently Mr. Hunter was good enough to die for our sins, but not quite up to the task of seducing green women." -Stewie Griffin
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Here's a link to quite a few of the early Christian books, both those in the general canon and those outside.
Early Christian Writings
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mike the wiz
Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Re: Just in case topic drift has happened, here is a replay of message 1
Unless I can find Peter in my bible, I think it is independent verification. Are you saying that the rules need to be changed? Because so far - my example passes them all, shouldn't you be happy that I satisfied your rules?
Mike, how is a gospel that was lopped out by the church outside the Bible? Am I hearing right? Don't put those puppets away just yet.  How is a stool out of my butt if I poop it out? Listen, that stool cannot be found in my butt. But who says the stool was ever in my butt? Prove it.
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