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Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Please give me so-called "proof" of Jesus or God. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
almeyda writes:
More people have claimed to have seen little grey aliens than the people that claimed to have seen Jesus after death. What the heck does that prove? Absolutely zero-reno. Well young man i believe our belief is true because our saviour rose from the dead and appeared to many many people. The Laminator
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Almeyda asserts: Well young man i believe our belief is true because our saviour rose from the dead and appeared to many many people.
While I believe that to be true, do you have any proof of that. Have you ever seen (one of my favorite movies of all time) Orfeu Negro? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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custard Inactive Member |
Do you know how many geniuses have lived in our world?. No that is not a miracle Even the angel part? Conversing with an angel isn't the tiniest bit miraculous?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
but if you are serious about this I would be happy to try to explain why I believe in Jesus.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
jar writes:
Yes, I am serious. However, could you wait a day or 2 before giving your explanation? I want to give the fundies enough chances to give their so-called proof. but if you are serious about this I would be happy to try to explain why I believe in Jesus. To be honest, I am trying to demonstrate a point. It is obvious to everyone that there is absolutely no "proof" or "evidence" of the existence of Jesus. However, fundies seem to have the habit of waving around false facts such as the existence of "proof" of the existence of Jesus. I have been annoyed by this for a very long time. I would die a happy man when the fundies willingly admit that their beliefs are due to nothing more than pure blind faith, nothing more. The Laminator
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No problem. Can I suggest that when you are ready, we make it a dialog as opposed to a debate? And perhaps a seperate thread might be appropriate.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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custard Inactive Member |
It is obvious to everyone that there is absolutely no "proof" or "evidence" of the existence of Jesus. Do you mean existence as an actual person? If so, Jesus is mentioned by Josephus. -nm, re-read your posts. You mean proof of Jesus as a divine entity, right? This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 08:39 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, IIRC, Flavius Josephus wasn't even born until 37 AD.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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custard Inactive Member |
That's true (I think), but it demonstrates independent confirmation of an individual's existence by a non-christian historian.
I think it counts as a piece, albeit small, of evidence that such an individual may have existed. We use evidence such as this for many historical figures. Here are some other non-christian sources (from this compilation Proving the historic Jesus):
1-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. "...he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." He also wrote, "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." 2- Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse. 3-Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles. Emperor Tiberius acted on Pilate's report, according to Tertullian, to the Roman Senate. "Tiberius accordingly, in whose days the Christian name made its entry into the world, having himself received intelligence from Palestine of events which had clearly shown the truth of Christ's divinity, brought the matter before the senate, with his own decision in favor of Christ. The senate, because it had not given the approval itself, rejected his proposal. Caesar held to his opinion, threatening wrath against all accusers of the Christians."
This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 09:01 PM This message has been edited by custard, 06-28-2004 09:02 PM
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custard Inactive Member |
I wasn't aware that Jesus is referred to in the Talmud (same source as above):
The Talmud, which consists of Jewish traditions handed down orally from generation to generation, was organized by Rabbi Akiba before his death in 135 A.D. The writings in the Talmud embrace the legal, ritual and exegetical commentaries that have developed right down to contemporary times. In Sanhedrin 43a, reference to Jesus is found. "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus' disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I don't have anything to say about two of the cites you give -- I tried a quick Google search, but couldn't find any academic sites that talk about them. But the quote by Josephus' allegedly affirming the deity of Christ is believed to be an interpolation added by later Christian copyists. There is an Arab version of Josephus' work, and this is much more modest in its claims. In this version, Josephus is merely reporting what is said by others.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1534 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Lam, Jesus was mentioned in various non source documents such as Tacitus and Erasmus. The shroud of Turin although partially debunked still can not be said not to be the acutal shroud. The spear that was said to pierce his side although remanufactured later still contains wood and bits of metal from the time of his life. At a time of brutal rule from Rome there were many many so called revolutionarys such as Jesus, his story caught on and spred throughout the region and eventually became the dominating belief in Europe for thousands of years. It stands to reason he must of been an extrodinary person.
There seems to be more evidence for Jesus than Socrates. I am aware that some of the non source mention of Jesus was redacted or added. But the writings of Mark (the earliest writings) does mention Jesus, albeit many years post his death. But is all this evidence? That depends on ones interpretation and ones standards of what constitutes evidence. I personally believe that this man did live and die most likely how was described. Was he God? Is the better question. "One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Whoa! The first mention of the shroud is from the 16th century, and the shroud itself was carbon dated to the 14th. I, too, think that the hypothesis that there was a man and teacher (with some controversey as to what he did, in fact, teach) is the best explanation for the data -- 4+ gospels, and the existence of a cult based on him by the latter half of the first century -- but I still have a healthy dose of doubt about it.
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custard Inactive Member |
Yeah, I'm just trying to show evidence that Jesus actually existed.
I don't think there are any documented 'eye witness' accounts, only writings based on other writings (like Josephus). But I think that it is notable that non-christians at least make passing mention to the guy.
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