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Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 286 of 309 (469464)
06-05-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Force
06-05-2008 5:23 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Joseph doesn't actually know what history is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:23 PM Force has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Force, posted 06-05-2008 5:31 PM Brian has not yet responded

Force
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 309 (469465)
06-05-2008 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Brian
06-05-2008 5:28 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Brian,

Ive noticed that about Joseph and thanks for pointing out the "truth" back in the discussion on "inerrant biblical manuscripts" in post 17.


Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:28 PM Brian has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 288 of 309 (469466)
06-05-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
So Rameses and Pithom are not contemporary and authentic egyptian names and cities.

Well with one city's name belonging to the 2nd millenium bce and the other belonging to the first millenium bce they most definitely are not contemporary.

Which pharaoh do you believe Moses dealt with?

Edited by Brian, : spelling and grammar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 289 of 309 (469472)
06-05-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Is Moses an ancient egyptian name

No it isn't!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:47 PM Brian has responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 290 of 309 (469473)
06-05-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Yes, the philistines entered Arabia shortly after Joseph landed in Egypt.

The earliest reference to the Philistines was c.1188 BCE in the 8th year of Rameses III, long time after Joseph, and for that matter Moses, 'lived'.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 5:13 PM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:45 PM Brian has responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 291 of 309 (469511)
06-05-2008 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Brian
06-05-2008 5:57 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
The earliest reference to the Philistines was c.1188 BCE in the 8th year of Rameses III, long time after Joseph, and for that matter Moses, 'lived'.


Everything I stated is historically vindicated. The philistines history and ther mentioning was introduced in the OT. This invading peoples are foremost associated with Israel, canaan and egypt, evidenced with papyrus relics found only recently, while their history was only known from the OT. I'm amazed that some on this forum give your claims any veracity. No peoples know more of the Philistines than the Hebrews, and one of the world's greatest historical hoaxes - fostered by Europe - is the current widespread acceptance of muslims in Palestne being Palestinians. The only historically vindicated scriptures in Arabia comes from the OT - exclusively.

quote:

Philistines
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kingdom of MoabThe Philistines (Hebrew פלשתים, plishtim) (see "other uses" below) were a people who inhabited the southern coast of Canaan, their territory being named Philistia in later contexts. Their origin has been debated among scholars, but modern archaeology has suggested early cultural links with the Mycenean world in mainland Greece.[1] Though the Philistines adopted local Canaanite culture and language before leaving any written texts, an Indo-European origin has been suggested for a handful of known Philistine words (See Philistine language).

Biblical scholars often trace the word to the semitic root p-l-sh (Hebrew: פלש‎) which means to divide, go through, to roll in, cover or invade,[3] with a possible sense in this name as "migrant" or "invader"[4].

History
If the Philistines are to be identified as one of the "Sea Peoples" (see Origins below), then their occupation of Canaan would have to have taken place during the reign of Ramesses III of the Twentieth Dynasty, ca. 1180 to 1150 BC. Their maritime knowledge presumably would have made them important to the Phoenicians.

In Egypt, a people called the "Peleset" (or, more precisely, prst), generally identified with the Philistines, appear in the Medinet Habu inscription of Ramesses III[6], where he describes his victory against the Sea Peoples, as well as the Onomasticon of Amenope (late Twentieth Dynasty) and Papyrus Harris I, a summary of Ramesses III's reign written in the reign of Ramesses IV. Nineteenth-century Bible scholars identified the land of the Philistines (Philistia) with Palastu and Pilista in Assyrian inscriptions, according to Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897).

The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, that belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BC). The biblical stories of Samson, Samuel, Saul and David include accounts of Philistine-Israelite conflicts. The Philistines long held a monopoly on iron smithing (a skill they possibly acquired during conquests in Anatolia), and the biblical description of Goliath's armor is consistent with this iron-smithing technology.

This powerful association of tribes made frequent incursions against the Hebrews. There was almost perpetual war between the two peoples. The Philistine cities were ruled by seranim (סְרָנִים, "lords"), who acted together for the common good, though to what extent they had a sense of a "nation" is not clear without literary sources. After their defeat by the Hebrew king David, who originally for a time worked as a mercenary for Achish of Gath, kings replaced the seranim, governing from various cities. Some of these kings were called Abimelech, which was initially a name and later a dynastic title.

Most authorities agree that the Philistines are not autochthonous to the regions of Israel/Palestine which the Bible describes them inhabiting. The Bible contains roughly 250 references to the Philistines or Philistia, and repeatedly refers to them as "uncircumcised", unlike the Semitic peoples, such as Canaanites, which the Bible relates encountered the Israelites following the Exodus. (See, e.g., 1 Samuel 17:26, 17:36; 2 Samuel 1:20; Judges 14:3).

It has been suggested that the Philistines formed part of the great naval confederacy, the "Sea Peoples," who had wandered, at the beginning of the 12th century BC, from their homeland in Crete and the Aegean islands to the shores of the Mediterranean and repeatedly attacked Egypt during the later Nineteenth Dynasty. Though they were eventually repulsed by Ramesses III, he finally resettled them, according to the theory, to rebuild the coastal towns in Canaan.

Papyrus Harris I details the achievements of the reign of Ramesses III. In the brief description of the outcome of the battles in Year 8 is the description of the fate of the Sea Peoples. Ramesses tells us that, having brought the imprisoned Sea Peoples to Egypt, he "settled them in strongholds, bound in my name. Numerous were their classes like hundred-thousands. I taxed them all, in clothing and grain from the storehouses and granaries each year." Some scholars suggest it is likely that these "strongholds" were fortified towns in southern Canaan, which would eventually become the five cities (the Pentapolis) of the Philistines (Redford 1992, p. 289). Israel Finkelstein has suggested that there may be a period of 25-50 years after the sacking of the Philistine cities and their reoccupation by the Philistines. It is quite possible that for the initial period of time, the Philistines were housed in Egypt, only subsequently late in the troubled end of the reign of Rameses III would they have been allowed to settle Philistia.

[edit] Archaeology
The connection between Mycenean culture and Philistine culture was made clearer by finds at the excavation of Ashdod, Ekron, Ashkelon, and more recently Tell es-Safi (probably Gath), four of the five Philistine cities in Canaan. The fifth city is Gaza.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:57 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 292 of 309 (469512)
06-05-2008 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Brian
06-05-2008 5:50 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Moses = 'from water' in ancient egyptian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:50 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Brian, posted 06-06-2008 2:05 AM IamJoseph has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 293 of 309 (469513)
06-05-2008 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Brian
06-05-2008 5:33 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
Well with one city's name belonging to the 2nd millenium bce and the other belonging to the first millenium bce they most definitely are not contemporary.

Which pharaoh do you believe Moses dealt with?


While I'm unsure exactly which pharoah this refers to, I know there was a Rameseys mentioned in the OT, and the names of his preists as well as this king has been identified in allignment with the OT writings. In fact, egyptian writings are so unreliable, they only get their veracity from the OT.

Both these cities [Ramesey being built for this king] were built by Hebrew labour; both are mentioned for the first time in Genesis. You are on record as denying David was an historical figure, against a host of scientific acceptance - and I can rest my case when it comes to your motives of history and quoting archeology. Perhaps you are in opposition to all theologies - but all theologies are not historical.

Most of humanity has a vested interest in denying israel's history - but they always end up eating their words, and then continueing their denials elsewhere. Consider how many pillars tumble if the OT is correct: the NT; [the Quran falls automatically in a single stroke once the NT falls - because it sanctions some portions of the gospels's version of history]; 90% of all claims made from Europe and the Middle-east; a host of states hijacked by oil; the entire atheist community. No one has ever held such a precarious position in geo-history. Its at a stage where the NT and the Quran are at the greatest expanse of oppositional versions of history, despite both emerging around the same time, relatively recently - yet no one bothers of it - maybe because these are not percieved as historical?!

Your talking a whole lot of humanity and alledged history being in diabolical variance from the OT in numerous instances - as well as a host of paradigms in sciences. But seeing that all those premises are mutually exclusive of each other's claims [both the NT and the Quran cannot be right!] - it is clear which single writings is right and correct historically. The situation is the reverse of how it should be - the fringe appears right, while the multitude appears wrong - this is a unique situation. Then again, it takes one single person to dislodge a 1000 years of held beliefs - Galeleo, Newton, Einstein, etc. I have not seen anything in the OT which is disproven or blatantly false - despite its anciency.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:33 PM Brian has not yet responded

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2214 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 294 of 309 (469518)
06-05-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Brian
06-05-2008 5:25 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
You claim that my statements here are ’Wrong on all counts.’

Yes, lets not be confused: I say 'EVERYTHING' you have postulated is incorrect - no exceptions, in the last few posts.

quote:

The thing is, according to the Bible, Israel should have been settled in Canaan with all the Canaanites slaughtered and gone,


I have responded to this: two of the eight canaanites kingdoms sided with Israel and lived peaceably in this land; the rest were conquered in numerous battles which last 150 years; gaza was not conquered till David's time. [The OT texts]

quote:
and the Stele just negates this.

No one said it mentioned much more. There was not much else to report, and ancient Egyptian writings are not historical, except only the boastings of its pharoahs - and which have been decidedly shown as false and exaggerated, and never allowing any negative details. very much like today.

quote:
Plus the ‘Israel’ (if that’s what it says), in the Stele is not a land but a people, and certainly not 3 million.

There's no 'PLUS'. Nothing you have said before has any veracity. I also responded to your 3 m ridiculing - this is backed by a scientific cencus of tribes, ages and genders, while there is no reason to lie. If the figs are already small, identifying only a small nation - where is the lie being pointed at and what's your point? Nor do you offer any proof, yet to use the term 'certainly not 3 million'

quote:
You start by saying: The stele is from a subsequent pharoah, not the one which confronted Moses.

Now, I have no idea where you imagine I said that it was the pharaoh who confronted Moses that the stele belonged to, since I specifically said the name of the pharaoh and said that it is outside the date range for the first 5 books!


LOL> you also said no mention was made of Israel's history. No backing down - your entire inference is clear.

quote:

Then I state that there are no links to verify that the Israel mentioned on the stele is the same as the Israel of the Bible. This is a fact. If you have any proof that it is the same Israel then post the evidence, but I know you can’t because there is no external evidence to support Israel in Palestine at the time the stele represents. I dare say you will just claim that there is, as you are not too keen on posting any supporting evidence at all.


This is ridiculous. You want me to prove what is proven. There is more evidence of israel in canaan [there was no such place as palestine - this name is recent, applied by European Rome, then they re-planted it on the most antitheticals], than almost any nation or historical writings in geo-history. Do you even accept there was an Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - with a thread culminating in three religions, with 2000 years of writings from numerous cross sections of nations? - if you do, this history, along with a 100 other nations listed, is exclusively derived from the OT writings.

quote:

My next claim that the stele gives no information that verifies anything mentioned in the Bible is a fact as well.

Meaning what? Today, most arabs deny the jerusalem temple: there goes your gospels, which claims one JC visited that monument, and Josephus gives minutae details of its sizes - and that the arabs were in the front rows as paid mercenaries destroying it. Yet we see european christianty laughably and cowardly silent of such notorious claims, and they instead foster an anti-israel hisotry - even if it negates their own beliefs and history - its a mad, mad, mad world! Even when you select your own provisions, you are talking nonesense.

quote:
ALL that the stele states regarding Israel is this:

Israel is laid waste, his seed is not

So, tell me, what in the Bible does this information verify?


If you were a rocket scientist, you would negate the egyptian boastings, and admit the OT as transcendent here. You should visit the mueums in Israel, France and Briton.

quote:
My final claim is that there is nothing in the archaeological record from Palestine at the time the Stele relates to that can be uniquely identified as ‘Israelite’.

A dead give away: there was no palestine when that stele was made. hello?

quote:

This is another unadulterated fact. You can disprove this claim by providing some material culture from the time and place that you can prove is uniquely Israelite, then you can collect your phd from any uni you choose.


It would make no difference. You would jump to another denial.

quote:
So, it looks as if everything I have posted is correct, or so far it is, since you have disproved nothing, and all you offer is your uninformed opinion.

Yes, lets not be confused: I say 'EVERYTHING' you have postulated is incorrect - no exceptions, in the last few posts.
Nothing was correct.


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 Message 285 by Brian, posted 06-05-2008 5:25 PM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 295 of 309 (469561)
06-06-2008 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 9:47 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Moses = 'from water' in ancient egyptian. Moses = 'from water' in ancient egyptian.

Incorrect.

Moses is only PART of a name, as in Ahmoses, Rameses, or even Thutmoses.

It means 'born of the god', or 'Son of the god'.

You are confusing the name Moses with the Hebrew verb Mashah, meaning to 'draw out'.

So, another amateur mistake Jo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:47 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 296 of 309 (469562)
06-06-2008 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 9:45 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Are you even aware that everything you posted here SUPPORTS what I have said???????????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 9:45 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1438 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 297 of 309 (469623)
06-06-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by IamJoseph
06-05-2008 10:51 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
quote:
My final claim is that there is nothing in the archaeological record from Palestine at the time the Stele relates to that can be uniquely identified as ‘Israelite’.

quote:
A dead give away: there was no palestine when that stele was made. hello?

I think Brian was referring to the area which later became known as Palestine - one has to have a way of identifying the geography. In any case, you did not address the point - can you make a connection between the Israelites and the Stele based on the archeological evidence?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by IamJoseph, posted 06-05-2008 10:51 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Brian, posted 06-06-2008 7:46 PM deerbreh has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 298 of 309 (469677)
06-06-2008 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by deerbreh
06-06-2008 2:07 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Cheers Deerbreh for pointing that out.

For Jo's info, EVERY scholar involved in the debate over Israel's origin refers to 'Canaan' as Palestine simply because it shows objectivity. Jo has posted this childish reply because he cannot provide any evidence.

He won't provide any evidence because it isn't there. There is nothing at all in the 13th century BCE that can be identified as uniquely Israelite.

Fundies claim that the marneptah stele proves the Bible is true, then when it is pointed out that the stele says that this Israel was wiped out then the fundy then starts reinterpreting.

I can state quite categorically that there is not a single pot sherd, button, or any other material culture in the entire archaeological record from this period that has been identified as 'Israelite.'

The Israel of the Stele may indeed be our biblical Israel, but there's no way of telling for sure from the evidence.

Here's a challenge Joseph, forget the Stele for a minute, what evidence do you have that there was anything Israelite in Egypt OR Palestine (Canaan to head off your body swerve) in the entire 2nd millenium BCE.

That's a whole one thousand year to provide ONE single shred of evidence, how easy can I make it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by deerbreh, posted 06-06-2008 2:07 PM deerbreh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Force, posted 06-07-2008 2:20 AM Brian has not yet responded

Force
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 309 (469732)
06-07-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Brian
06-06-2008 7:46 PM


Re: Is the bible the word of God or men?
Brian,

wiki writes:

The stele has gained much notoriety and fame for being the only Ancient Egyptian document generally accepted as mentioning "Isrir" or "Israel". It is also, by far, the earliest known attestation of Israel. For this reason, many scholars refer to it as the "Israel stele". This title is somewhat misleading because the stele is clearly not concerned about Israel— in fact, it mentions Israel only in passing. There is only one line about Israel: "Israel is wasted, bare of seed" or "Israel lies waste, its seed no longer exists" and very little about the region of Canaan. Israel is simply grouped together with three other defeated states in Canaan (Gezer, Yanoam and Ashkelon) in the stele. Merneptah inserts just a single stanza to the Canaanite campaigns but multiple stanzas to his defeat of the Libyans. The line referring to Merneptah's Canaanite campaign reads: Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Edited by Force, : edit

Edited by Force, : edit

Edited by Force, : edit

Edited by Force, : edit


Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Brian, posted 06-06-2008 7:46 PM Brian has not yet responded

Brian
Member (Idle past 3505 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 300 of 309 (469862)
06-08-2008 3:41 AM


bump
Here's a challenge Joseph, forget the Stele for a minute, what evidence do you have that there was anything Israelite in Egypt OR Palestine (Canaan to head off your body swerve) in the entire 2nd millenium BCE.

That's a whole one thousand year to provide ONE single shred of evidence, how easy can I make it?

3 million people wandering around Egypt, then the Sinai, then battling their way into Palestine/Canaan, then settling there, and not a single shred of evidence, you would have thought there would be whole museums full of archaeological evidence.

But there you go, looks like the Bible is a fairytale book after all.


Replies to this message:
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