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Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Abortion questions...? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Iblis Member (Idle past 3926 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
Na, I'm aware of the context. I've known 137 by heart since I was but little. While it rejoiceth in thoughts of future vengeance, it is indeed a prayer rather than a commandment.
Hosea is rather explicit though: "for she hath rebelled against her God". My point is that these rock and sword "abortions" are things the Allmighty reserves to himself to bring upon people. Can't have us "playing God", yeah? BTW, why are you fucking with my little bit of context skew when you have people comparing the Akedat to advanced contraception?
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Because it is context skew, quote mining, and I jump on the other Christians when they do that as well.
They too are wrong comparing the Akedah to advanced contraception, but it is a funny image. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
subbie writes: I cannot understand anyone who thinks it's homicide, but believes it should not be outlawed. there are legal homicides, this is one of them. I prefer not to hide behind the veil of denial, as we split hairs on "what is life?" or "what is a person?". I know some here are fond of that underhanded tactic, but I prefer to shoot from the hip. For me life begins at conception, and abortion is homicide, but so is capitol punishment, self-defense, war, etc. I choose free-choice in this one.
buzsaw writes: The problem I have with that is that it's not her body that's in question. It's that other person's body which she and it's father caused to become a live human being and perhaps a living soul as some of us agree is the case. According to Luke 1, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb and leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary greeted her. unless you can remove the foetus, and raise it in a device of some sort, then the womans body is very much in question. she wants it out of her, she may not want it dead but she want no part of it. I do not see why some feel it is fine to force women to be pregnant.
buzsaw writes: It's about killing a person more than what's moral. Should the babe be less safe in the womb than one minute out of the womb? i do not think that it is.
buzsaw writes: There was a time when our nation did legislate it as unlawfully killing that other person unable to speak for and defend itself against pain and death.
when, and where?I think this was and still should be a state's rights issue, the Federal government has no real business in this one. Edited by Artemis Entreri, : I'll reply to Buzsaw and Subbie in the same one i guess Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i cant spel, or prevew Edited by Artemis Entreri, : ugh
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
raised by a series of abusive foster parents.
I just want to point out that the majority of foster parents are not abusive. As a foster parent I do take offense at stereotypes that paint foster parents as abusive. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Aw geez, and you were doing so nice there for a while.
I prefer not to hide behind the veil of denial, as we split hairs on "what is life?" or "what is a person?". I know some here are fond of that underhanded tactic, but I prefer to shoot from the hip. There's nothing underhanded about understanding that this:
is not a human being. The argument that it's a human being at birth and there's no clear point of demarcation anywhere along the line of development so it must be a human being at conception is called a slippery slope argument. Is an egg a chicken? Is an apple seed an apple tree? Of course not. A blastocyst is not a human being. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
Theodoric writes: raised by a series of abusive foster parents.
I just want to point out that the majority of foster parents are not abusive. As a foster parent I do take offense at stereotypes that paint foster parents as abusive. First let me humbly apologize. I fully understand that the vast majority of foster parents are self-sacrificing, loving people who do a great service to the children they raise and to society. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise and regret it if what I said gave that impression. By the same token, I also didn't mean to imply that all non-white children placed for adoption are diseased crack babies. My point was simply that the naive assumption that all unwanted pregnancies can be solved by putting the children up for adoption ignores harsh realities that many pregnant women face every day. Oh, and you have no idea how much it pains me to say this, but good luck to the Pack in the Superbowl. Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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RAZD writes: Good point. We also have the case for abandoning babies, as the mother of Moses did, so that she did not have to deal with the consequences of her behavior. It's a strawman point. This thread is not about abandonment (which was not the intent of the mother who counted on the bathing princess's compassion) or killing a teenager (Abraham knowing the prophecy of Jehovah concerning Isaac's preservation), the two strawmen Briterican cited. It's about the legality of pre-birth abortion. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
yep, underhanded tactics, of talking about something else other than the original thought, it all this site is good for.
EvC should be called "beating around the bush". Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
there are legal homicides, this is one of them.
True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level.
I do not see why some feel it is fine to force women to be pregnant.
And only within the US borders. They want laws set up to only control the choices of Americans. If you're from another country, no one cares what happens to your kid, fetus, or sperm cells. Esp. if you're skin is dark.
The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics quote: Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year. These are living human beings that can barely survive, why continue to flood the earth with more unwanted humans under these conditions? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
If a pregnant woman is in a car accident and the fetus is killed (but not the mother), should the person at fault get charged with murder?
If a pregnant woman falls down the stairs and the fetus in killed, should SHE be charged with murder? If a pregnant woman does not comply with doctors orders for a healthy pregnancy, should she be charged with neglect the same as a parent would if they neglected an actual child? "What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4220 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
The answer to all three questions is no.
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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subbie Member (Idle past 1285 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
I agree with bluescat, the answer to all three questions is no. But in the first hypothetical it frequently is, and should be, a crime of some sort to kill a fetus without consent of the woman.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate ...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3926 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
The third one is a legal issue already in many cases, as well. Most commonly it's seen in charges against crack mamas, but I believe there are some laws on the books about alcohol poisoning too.
But none of those 3 is "murder" by any conception, there's no intent to kill even if the fetus were a person. Alcohol-related vehicular homicide sometimes gets treated like murder, but this is bad law. Attempts to criminalize the incidental termination of a pregnancy in the course of an assault on the mother as "murder" would also be bad law, and are specifically being pursued as a "wedge". Good law respects the traditional definition of murder as intentional homicide of a living breathing person and does not try to fudge this concept in the course of criminalizing other acts. And that woman who falls down the stairs, wtf? Is that just there for contrast?
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
Onifre writes: True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level.
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. Maybe I misread you, but I do not see the corelation.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. Maybe I misread you, but I do not see the corelation. Some birth control prevents implantation, which would take place after conception.
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