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Member (Idle past 5114 days) Posts: 651 From: Jareth's labyrinth Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Abortion questions...? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
not the kind i use.
if there are those that prevent implantation, then i think that is an abortion too.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
if there are those that prevent implantation, then i think that is an abortion too. So would you call that method of birth control a homicidal method?
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy? From a more religious perspective, if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Wouldn't destroying sperm and eggs be the same a destroying half a human soul every single time? How many half-human souls have been lost during the course of the average male's life? Or female's life? I'm just trying to find some consistency here. - Oni
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
onifre writes:
And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins? ... if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? "I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy? You do realize you are a set of cells yourself. Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? (since both are a set of cells) Clearly, not every set of cells are equal. It's just a matter of determining which is, and which isn't.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? We are not talking about aborting a fetus. We're not at that stage of development yet in this discussion. At the stage we were discussing, a sperm cell and a zygote are practically the same thing, just a combination of two haploids. We're talking about not caring at all if we destroy a haploid cell(sperm) but caring beyond reasonable conversation for destroying a diploid cell(zygote). Is there really a difference? - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined:
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And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins?
You just blew my fucking mind! - Oni
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
slevesque writes:
Personally, I don't have a problem with shaving (which can kill a set of cells), and I don't think of shaving as the first step on a slippery slope to homicide.You do realize you are a set of cells yourself. Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? Jesus was a liberal hippie
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3674 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
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Since you think it is ok to abort a foetus, does it mean it is ok to kill you ? Of course it is ok. How could it not be? Every minute, ten children die a preventable death (just counting those under five years old.) There is no sanctity of human life - just a perceived one within your own zone of comfort.
Source
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi ringo,
onifre writes:
And how does soul mathematics work in the case of twins? ... if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Obviously someone doesn't get it ... Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi oni,
onifre writes: Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year. Where did you get that number from? In 2005 the last date we have verified stats on in the US there was 1.21 million abortions. Worldwide it grows to 46 million per year. That comes out to about 87 legal abortions per minute if my math is correct. 15 million children die of starvation each year in the world. That comes out to about 28 per minute if my math is correct. So your numbers are a little out of whack. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Where did you get that number from?
Here quote: Where did you get your numbers from?
15 million children die of starvation each year in the world. That comes out to about 28 per minute if my math is correct. Pretty sad, right? What was your point here?
So your numbers are a little out of whack.
Hardly... - Oni
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
The reasoning you were using was: ''If it is ok to kill one set of cells, why isn't it ok to kill another set of cells?''
A foetus is also simply a set of cells at another stage then the zygote, as is a newborn, as is a child, as are both of us. So what I was saying is that the right question is: ''Which set of cells is it ok to kill, at which stage does it become ok ?'' Now, I perfectly understand that you are arguing that there are no reasons to put the line between the two haploids and the zygote. But you have to put a line somewhere, and since this is a continuum, it is not sufficient to look ''before'' and ''after'' the line, see negligeable differences, and therefore argue the line cannot be put there. After all, society has put the line at birth. But really, what is the difference between when the baby is inside, and when he is outside a couple hours later ? But since you have a line, and that it is a continuum, then you have to put it at least at a critical moment. The birth is such a critical moment. The fertilization of the ovum is another.
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slevesque Member (Idle past 4671 days) Posts: 1456 Joined: |
Are you saying all these deaths are ok ?
Because as a christian I think it is totally unacceptable. Unacceptable that we, the more fortunate and able in this world, go about our daily lives as if those tragedies aren't happening every second. Unacceptable that it seems to be only a superficial concern for us, that we send 10$ in the mail and feel that we have done our part. And certainly unacceptable that people think these deaths somehow justify feeling comfortable about paying 500$ to abort a foetus.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
The reasoning you were using was: ''If it is ok to kill one set of cells, why isn't it ok to kill another set of cells?'' I was only trying to keep AE consistent in his thinking. If a haploid is ok to destroy with zero reservations, shouldn't a zygote be destroyed with zero reservations? It's literally the same thing. AE said he felt destroying a zygote was homicide, so I asked if he felt destroying a haploid was too since they are the same thing. He said "no," and that made very little sense to me.
Now, I perfectly understand that you are arguing that there are no reasons to put the line between the two haploids and the zygote. But you have to put a line somewhere, and since this is a continuum, it is not sufficient to look ''before'' and ''after'' the line, see negligeable differences, and therefore argue the line cannot be put there.
That's fine, put the line somewhere, but to me it seemed silly to put the line between two haploids and a zygote, when it is exactly the same thing. At least there, the line should not be. We can argue where it should be from that point forward, but it makes no sense to put it where AE had it. - Oni
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Pretty sure he was implying that christians don't go around protesting about children in Africa dying, or the homeless in America. They don't parade around with posterboards of dirty crack babies or welfare kids. Nope, they would rather march around Planned Parenthood with picket signs of half aborted fetuses and make expecting mothers or pregnant women, who are going through what is likely the most important decision of their life and what is probably the hardest thing they have ever went through, feel like shit because they don't like their choice. Because it's ok to make people feel like shit if they have different ideals than you, right? That's the christian way.
At least that's what I took from cavediver's statement. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
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