Summations Only

That is a clear heartfelt post Faith and I'll try to answer in kind. I agree that God reaches out to us in the subtle ways that you experience. I also agree with you that it is difficult to sort out what is of God and what isn't. If we believe something is the right thing to do then hopefully we do it.More than once in my life I have had the sense that I was to do something specific. In one case it ultimately led me into a ministry with seniors that I have maintained for 35 years. I don't however think that my life experiences validates my specific religious beliefs. It does confirm for me that there is an intelligence subtly influencing our loves and that the intelligence is one that cares about us, just as I don't see your life experience confirming your specific religious beliefs.I'm not sure where you get your definition of "inspired" from but I'd be interested in knowing why you think that it is your definition that should be used and not mine.As I mentioned, you agreed that it is hard to know what is of God and what isn't. Wouldn't that have been the same for the Biblical authors? Sometimes they got it right and sometimes not. Just like us. We have the Word of God embodied by the man Jesus and we have enough of what it was that He said and did to gain clear picture of the nature of God Sometimes that picture is consistent with what the OT authors wrote and sometimes it isn't. We have been given the lens to provide clarity.I use my favourite Bible verse as a signature on this forum and it is from the OT, but it is a verse whose truth is confirmed by the message and life of Jesus.Faith as a woman how do you react to this quote from Deuteronomy 22.

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13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

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Here is a quote from John 8:

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1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?"6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them,"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stoneat her."8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

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Can you not see that these two passages present two entirely different views of the nature of God. Saying that they needed those laws then just doesn't cut it. Do you really believe that passage from Deuteronomy is of God? Faith, we have the unadulterated Word of God in Jesus Christ why do you ignore what He says in favour of maintaining the inerrancy of passages like the one I just quoted?

Absolutely. God breathes life into the Scriptures They are inspired, but to say that means that they are inerrant is to misuse that entirely. Paul goes on to say that they are useful for teaching, for rebuke, for improvement and for training in righteousness.The Scriptures are a collection of writings that tell the history of God reaching out to His creation and how the understanding of the ancient Jews of Yahweh grew to its climax in Jesus of Nazareth. God reaches out to us through those stories in order to teach, rebuke, improve and train us.As you obviously know of course the NT didn't exist as Scripture when that letter was written and in fact the majority of the NT didn't exist at all except for the collection of written and oral material that formed the basis for the NT. As a result it could only be referring to the Hebrew Scriptures as they existed at that time. Did you actually read that. One of the things that as Christians we believe is that we are to be a just people and justice is based on the justice of God. As Christians we believe that ultimately God's perfect justice will prevail at the end of time as we know it.Let's look at that quote again:

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13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

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The husband tires of his wife and claims she wasn't a virgin when they married. They go to the father and mother ask them to prove that she was. If they can prove that she was a virgin then his punishment is that he has to keep her as his wife and he can't divorce her. This means of course that she has no recourse and is stuck with this jerk for good. However, if the parents are unable to prove that she was a virgin, then guilty or not she is taken to the parents house and stoned to death.Tell me Faith, just how is this protective of the people as a whole. Is this an example of God's perfect justice? Is this what He wants of us? You say it is a foreshadowing of the punishment of Hell. That is Hell on Earth and you are saying that it's of God. Faith, that is simply blasphemous.You go on to say that "we are to learn from that too". In other words you believe in a god that wants to scare us into choosing the right way of life but telling us that we should stone to death a woman who couldn't prove that she was a virgin prior to marriage.In Jesus we receive the message that we are to freely choose the right way to live which simply involves having a heart that chooses to love unselfishly and even sacrificially. I love the Righteous Jehovah God. God as you seem to worship him is anything but righteous. When it comes to legalism you make the Pharisees second class. Yes, Jesus came as a merciful saviour as a Kingdom builder that calls His followers, the members of that Kingdom to reflect God's love, justice, peace, forgiveness and mercy to the world. Interesting that you take one part of one verse from Timothy, twist its meaning and then use that to justify a whole hermeneutic and the accuse me of taking Jesus out of context. Please explain to me where it is that I took Jesus out of context. You simply reject pretty much of the Sermon on the Mount which is the most comprehensive teaching of Jesus that we have. You do that in favour of making an idol out of the Bible.IMHO I read the Bible very much in context. As a Christian though I start with Jesus and work out from there. When you do that all of Scripture falls into place.

We are not told that the scripture writers got it all right. We are told that the scriptures are useful for correction, teaching etc. It isn't me speculating where they got it wrong. It is Jesus telling us where they got it wrong. All the law and the prophets are encapsulated in the command to love God and neighbour. If it doesn't fit that criteria given to us from Jesus as drawn from the Hebrew Scriptures, then we can see that as being useful for teaching, rebuking, for improvement and training in righteousness by illuminating the ways that we get it wrong and go away from God. That is hardly the orthodox view. It is your view. I don't throw out the Scriptures that disagree with the view of Jesus that comes from The Gospels. Once again, they are useful for all the reasons in Timothy 3:16, that verse you hang your faith on.

They certainly don't make sense, and at least we agree on that. You talk about it being an ancient culture and taking it out of context. You accuse me of taking things out of context but you never say how you come to that conclusion. There are numerous laws like that in the OT that are completely contradicted and remedied by the teaching of Jesus. Go back to my original quote from the NT with the woman caught in adultery. Jesus has her freed by saying that the one without sin should cast the first stone. It is clear that these laws were being followed up to the time of Jesus.As for it being an ancient culture I'd suggest that it still exists today in parts of the world. It really isn't much different than we can see for those living under the Taliban and others of their ilk. Is that a result of the god you worship. Is that a group that carried on under god and remained untouched by Jesus.Maybe they are the ones following the true nature of god. How would we know if we understand the Bible as you do? You understand god as having a dual nature. Maybe they have it right and we have it wrong or maybe we're both right but living in different circumstances so god has one set of laws for them and one for us. How would you know?

I and others explained to you how He could. Frankly Faith that is because your position is indefensible.

But many are doing that in other parts of the world. Taking your position to its logical conclusion would lead us to believe that societies such as those under Taliban rule are being led by god. Their society mirrors the society that we see depicted in the early books of the OT. It just appears evil to us because we don't have your god's insight into what is needed to ultimately bring societies such as that into a more perfect state.

Fair enough although I'm not sure that is how others would understand the term "plenary inspiration".The thing about Faith's argument is that she has to defend Biblical inerrancy at all costs. It is why I call her faith biblianity as opposed to Christianity. Her faith depends on an inerrant Bible. It is like the bottom card in a house of cards - pull it out and the whole thing comes down as would everything her life is based on.

Out of curiosity are you saying that you know God is real or are you saying that you know that your theological beliefs are accurate?AbE ...or both.Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

I know what you are saying mike but my problem is this. My whole life is built around my Christian faith. I know that I am called by God to respond to His call to reflect His love, peace, forgiveness etc to the world as is called for in the signature I use.I also know that the Bible is not meant to be understood the way Faith uses it. Faith's method IMHO belittles the Bible by understanding it and promoting as inerrant. That understanding actually minimizes what God wants us to gain from it. As I have said numerous times it is Jesus that is the "Word" of God. The Bible is the "word" of God. God reaches out through the words of the Bible as written by men. The books of the Bible together tells the narrative of the story of reaching out to mankind, with them sometimes getting things right but more often than not getting them wrong. The narrative climaxes with Jesus which brings light to the whole collection of books that make up the canon. Again, it is Christianity not Bibleinaity.So Faith knows that the Bible is inerrant and I know it isn't and yet we can't both be right.

I agree that it doesn't have to be contentious as it should be something that we can discuss and if necessary disagree. However, that doesn't mean that I don't think that it is important.Any serious religion is about understanding the nature of whatever deity there might be. In the majority of cases religion becomes about how can I control this deity so that I gain power or other desires either in this life or the next.As monotheists we worship the one creator God, but are we really worshiping that God if we don't have a true grasp of the nature of that God. If we don't have the nature of God right, then are we truly worshiping that God at all or a false image of Him.I have had many discussions with Faith about this. She agrees that she understands God's nature as one who, at least in the past, has been genocidal, supported mass stoning for the most minor of offences, and has been misogynistic. If one believes in an inerrant Bible then it is the only conclusion that you can come to.However, if you start with the Jesus of the Gospels you gain an entirely different view of the nature of God. If Jesus, as I believe, embodied the "Word of God" or His wisdom if you like, then we understand the nature of God as being "always", loving, forgiving, just, and merciful to people of all races and genders.If I had to accept an inerrant Bible to be a Christian then I wouldn't be one. I am not prepared to worship a god as sometimes depicted in the OT, but I am prepared to worship and serve the God that I see embodied in the life and message of Jesus. I understand Jesus as being the embodiment of the nature and wisdom of God as a result of the firm belief I have that God vindicated and validated the life and message of Jesus the Christ by resurrecting Him.In believing what I do I am forced to believe that Faith believes in a false nature of God. IMHO she has replaced an inerrant Jesus with an inerrant Bible.The thing is, that is most cases it probably doesn't really matter that much and we can just go on co-existing harmoniously but sometimes it does make a difference. There are things that matter from questions of going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, capital punishment, the environment, our response to terrorism etc. As Christians we need be able to be able to ask the question, "what would God do" and form a conclusion. That conclusion is going to be based on our understanding of the nature of God.When Faith and I have such different understanding of the nature of God then when comes to questions like the ones I mentioned, or personal questions of how we conduct our lives we are likely to come to very different conclusions.In the end is Christianity about a god who justifies extreme violence to achieve His ends or a god who justifies extreme love to achieve the same ends? I believe that these differences do matter.

If you read the NT as it is written it wasn't a matter of faith. It was about the heart. That is the original orthodoxy. Salvation by faith grew out of the reformation in order to counter the idea of salvation by works.The thing is though, that once again you expose the error of fundamentalism. It is all about personal salvation. You sell an image of God that is all about believing so that you get to live forever. You are marketing something that is all about the self, as how else do you get someone to follow the type of god you have to espouse with inerrancy.How about a God that is worth worshiping and serving . It is a god that is loving, just and forgiving, and is worth following and serving on that basis alone, without consideration of what is in it for the self. That is the God we see in Jesus Christ.Read Matthew 25 and the sheep did what they did without realizing that it was done for and to Jesus. It is all about the heart.

But then you make the leap from there right to an inerrant Bible. There is no reason to do that.

This post represents the true picture of fundamentalism. Just read through it yourself mike. It is all about YOU - YOUR peace- YOUR great experiences of God - YOUR answered prayer etc. YOU rejected Catholicism because YOU didn't get anything out of it. It is all about YOU believing the right things so that YOU can get God to do what YOU want Him to.It is the same thing that Jesus rejected in His own people. They had been trying to get God to do what they wanted Him to do by legalistically following a set of laws. You are doing exactly the same thing except that instead of the circumcision, sabbath laws, food laws etc you have your faith and belief laws. You have essentially turned faith into a work and it has again become works righteousness.Yes, I believe that God hopes we'll be born again but I question if someone thinks that being born again is simply so that they get to live forever and have great spiritual experiences. Read the Bible. The idea is that we are called to be born again so that out hearts are made less about us and more about others and all of creation for that matter. It is about a changed heart so that we are better equipped to humbly take God's love, peace, forgiveness, justice etc to the world. We are born again for a purpose and that purpose is not so that we get God on our side it is so that we are on side with Him so that we can serve His creation. Remember, Jesus was a servant King washing the disciples feet. We are called to be a servant people loving our neighbour by serving His creation.The brand of Christianity that you and Faith appear to espouse is much closer to what the Pharisees taught than what Jesus taught, and as I repeat ad nauseum is that it is Biblianity and not Christianity or at least not the Christianity that Jesus taught and lived.

The Westminster Catechism says that the chief end of man is that we glorify God and enjoy Him forever.How do we glorify Him. Do we do it by singing praises in church, (which I agree is a good thing but only a small part of worship), or do we much more fully worship Him by serving Him in our reflection of His love and care to creation. The worship in church is a means to an end as it facilitates us serving Him in community.I know that you aren't keen on using human reasoning to understand the nature of God but I ask you, which do you believe to be the truest form of worship?1/ Singing praises in church.
2/ Attending a Bible study.
3/ Volunteering in a homeless shelter.A hint would be in Matthew 25 where it talks about the least of His children.Yes, we are meant to enjoy Him forever. See Psalm 37.

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4Delightyourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.5Commit your way to the LORD; trust in himand he will do this:

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The point being if that you trust God then His ways of love become your ways then that is where you will find your joy and truly enjoy Him forever.Paul says this in Corinthians 1 Corinthians 4:5

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Thereforejudgenothing beforetheappointed time; wait tilltheLord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will exposethemotives of men'shearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

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It is all about the motives of our hearts not our theology and it isn't our business about who winds up where, (whatever where means in this instance), in the next life. Personally I'll leave the judging to God.Edited by GDR, : typoEdited by GDR, : No reason given.

From what you have written I believe that the most persuasive evidence that you have for inerrancy is fulfilled prophesy and particularly the fulfilled prophesy found in Jesus.I'd like to try another way of looking at that with you, starting from points where we have some agreement. I think that we would both agree that God speaks to us through our hearts and minds in some form or another calling us to be loving, kind, just forgiving etc. Through that I think that we can gain insight into what He is doing and What He wants of us for this world, so that we can faithfully reflect His love into His creation. I think that we would agree that we often don't get it right and that there are many times that we are heavily influenced by our own personal agenda.I think that we would also agree that Jesus was an individual who was steeped in the Hebrew Scriptures and one who prayed incessantly to the Father for knowledge and guidance. The Gospels tell of Jesus speaking in the synagogues and being called teacher etc so I think we are safe in concluding that He was thoroughly fluent when it came to teaching on the Scriptures. We also have many accounts of His time in prayer in the Gospels so I contend that we are also on safe ground there.Where we disagree on what it means for God to have inspired the Scriptures. It is my belief that the Scriptures were inspired in the same way that Mozart was inspired musically. The Biblical writers were inspired to put pen and paper to their understanding of God and of their understanding of what God was doing in their world. However, just as people today get right off track in trying to follow and understand God today, they did then as well.In Jesus' day there were various ideas of what a messiah was to do and be but the principle idea was that he would lead them militarily against their enemies and vanquish them.I'm suggesting this. Jesus with His Scriptural knowledge and through prayer understood the Hebrew Scriptures in a way that was counter-cultural, and felt that He was called to a specific vocation which was to be the messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures. I'd suggest that He saw Himself called to fulfil the prophesies such as the suffering servant is Isaiah, Son of Man in Daniel as well as the prophesies in Jeremiah. He rejected the militaristic prophesies found in the Scriptures, or at least He rejected the common perception of those prophesies.I'd suggest that the man Jesus, along with His cousin John the Baptist went about consciously fulfilling the prophesies that were consistent with the vocation that He on faith believed He was called to. The most obvious one would be riding into Jerusalem on a donkey as foretold in Jeremiah. He was making a messianic statement. Another example is the quote from the cross from Psalm 22 "My God why have you forsaken me". I'm suggesting that what was written initially did not involve supernatural insight. I'm suggesting that Jesus used these scriptures to make a messianic statement and intentionally fulfilled these Scriptures by His words and actions. Even His going to the cross was an act of faith gained through Scripture and prayer. He knew what would happen to someone going into Jerusalem and and doing what He planned to do and saying what He planned to say.As I said to jar in another thread, that if He has simply died on the cross and was buried in the tomb it would simply mean that he was another failed messiah and there would be no particular reason to give any credibility to what He had to say. However the cross was not the end of the story. God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating and validating Jesus' life and message. It is the resurrection that brings the whole Biblical account into focus and it is through the resurrection that we should base our hermeneutical understanding of what God is doing and what God wants of us and for us.I contend that by understanding the Bible as being inerrant we not only fail to understand but distort what God wants us to learn from the Scriptures.I'm saying that instead of understanding prophesy as being a supernatural foretelling of the future, it is that it is actually Jesus consciously fulfilling the appropriate prophesies in order to be faithful to the vocation He believed that He was called to.