Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread

Sorry if I missed it and perhaps it's worth repeating, or maybe not. I'm more concerned with the disgusting PC element of the discussion.Yes, but only where "PC" means something like introducing truth in the face of a xenophobic rant that flies in the face of the actual facts.

You've indicated that as long as a single immigrant commits a crime, the its okay to lambast all of them. There is nothing PC about calling you on that.

It turns out that it is also illegal not to discriminate against gays. Do I see you defending that state of affairs on pure legal grounds? Similarly, being illegal is not the last word on the issue of immigrants either.

Hi again Faith, Building a wall will not keep anyone out that really wants to get here. They will turn to more venal traffickers\smugglers to go around, under, over or through (checkpoints). The more desperate the more committed they will be to getting here. We see this with the Syrian refugees.What will keep them back is good economic growth in their home countries free of guerrilla and drug wars.Returning to changing the laws from being unjust\immoral laws to new just\moral laws, the question remains about what we do with the ones that were illegal and are now legal. So we could let in anyone, any time, and IF they commit a crime and are convicted of it in a court of law they could be deported, and that would take care of this concern, yes? (we can even stipulate they are vetted against "known terrorist" lists etc and have no criminal record in their country of origin). Pretty simple eh?Now let us consider how to integrate new immigrants into our vast melting pot nation.What do they need to do? (1) learn english (take "english as a second language" courses), (2) learn N.American history (Revolutionary War, Native American genocide, Spanish American War etc pus social movements from emancipation of slaves to women's votes to civil rights to gay rights), (3) learn the Constitution and the history behind it from the Declaration of Independence to the latest amendments and ones that are proposed).What else? Well I would replace waiting lines and lists with a probationary work period of basically being an indentured worker for a set period of time, say 5 or 10 years. At the end of that time you pass tests on (1), (2) and (3) above to become a full citizen with full (deportation proof) citizen rights.To transition from our current system I would give everyone on a waiting list credit for time spent on that list against their probationary period. And I would also give current illegals credit for time spent working in the US against their probationary period. Any infraction\crime would mean deportation and\or resetting the probationary time if they return ... or prison (depending on the crime: terrorist act, for example).This would make legal immigration more attractive than illegal immigration.American farmers and factories get workers, immigrants earn citizenship, the flood of illegals reduces to a trickle ... it's a win-win-win.

Illegal immigrants are human beings and they have basic human rights, one of which is to be treated as human beings ... see the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (an interesting document -- read it and see if there is anything there that you don't think should be applied to you).

It doesn't sound pleasant of course. Shall we give up all methods of trying to get a confession out of somebody?

Did you read Is there any evidence that illegal immigrants commit violent crime at a greater rate Message 5?

Yea but torture does not work, it has been proven over and over that it does not work, the victims say anything to make the suffering stop. And apart from that its also not a verry nice thing to do to someone else, no matter what he has done.

So let's see. Just for the sake of context, say you have a jihadi who is suspected on good authority of having information about a massive plan to kill people. We are to be nice to him and let the plan go forward without taking any measures to get information out of him?

We are to be nice to him and let the plan go forward without taking any measures to get information out of him?

And unjust. Especially when they divide families and separate parents from children.

Curiously the incarceration and immigration problems are cut from the same cloth: treating other people as second class people ... people with less "rights" than "good" people.

Detention centers in the south are no different than prisons in the north (some even run by the same "for-profit" evil companies).

Freedom and liberty in this country are under attack, not from the outside, but from the inside: when we treat any person as having less rights the we are allowing others to treat more people as having less rights ... and where does that stop?

I don't remember but if I didn't I'm sure I will eventually.

CRIMINALS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS NONCRIMINALS. Good grief the world has gone to perdition already thanks to PC.

I think it's a brand-new PC style "right" that has been forced down the throats of the majority of citizens who oppose it ...

Perfect case of totalitarian tyranny.

Now that's the first time anyone has bothered to describe anything about waterboarding so thanks for that. Everybody else is content to accuse accuse accuse and puff themselves up with their moral superiority. Which of course you do too but at least you said something about waterboarding.

I didn't say Jesus would approve of it, I just get sick of hearing about this wimpy Jesus who supposedly loves illegal immigrants and jihadists and is always on the side of people making themselves morally superior over others because they have the wrong opinions.

The question of waterboarding now seems to me to raise the question of whether authorities are allowed to do anything at all to try to induce someone to confess to a crime. Obviously waterboarding makes people feel like they are suffocating, but are they suffocating? Has anyone ever suffocated?