Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 396 of 899 (819587)
09-13-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
09-13-2017 2:28 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Eh whut? Whoever said these varves formed DURING THE FLOOD? What an utterly ridiculous idea. They had to have formed afterward, over the millennia SINCE the Flood.
Okay so now you abandoned your argument about waves and tides forming them. For now.
So, Faith, how do the 6 million layers form in the last 4000 to 5000 years or so ... unnoticed by the people living there?
What's the magic process to make those layers faith? That's over 1200 layers per year, 100 layers per month, 3 layers per day ... what is it faith?
And while you are attempting to shoehorn that into your fantasy, explain why they show the "periodic effects of pronounced cyclicity, with the precession, obliquity, and eccentricity orbital components all clearly detectable. This enables the beds to be internally dated with a high degree of accuracy, and astrochronological dates agree very well with radiometric dates" ... how do you explain that faith?
You have no idea of the layers and layers of evidence that is against your delusional fantasy.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : link

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 2:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:32 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 400 of 899 (819591)
09-13-2017 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
09-13-2017 12:36 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
Missed this on the first answer:
... You can have that hypothesis if you like, but the Flood would have wiped out the Green River so however they formed it was after the Flood.
And the varves in Lake Suigetsu and Cariaco Basin would also have been wiped out, and they extend linked to today for over 50,000 years of annual deposits, the one verifying the other.
Keep trying faith, it is so entertaining to watch the dance of denial.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 12:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:38 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 404 of 899 (819595)
09-13-2017 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:56 AM


Re: Again, the Geo Column shows the absurdity of the OE/ToE
Hardly. Funny how you assert that over and over and don't even give one reason to think anything I've said is false. ...
Except that I have, you just ignore it.
See Age of Grand Canyon and Cave Speleothems and If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS? for examples of Grand Canyon geology.
Also review Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Then we could go back to the Grand Canyon in stages thread by Jar ... discontinuities between layers prove your thesis is false. And yes we can prove falsehoods.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 425 of 899 (819619)
09-13-2017 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:32 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
RAZD, I HAVE NEVER EVER said the varves formed DURING THE FLOOD. I say only that the STRATA that make up the GEOLOGICAL COLUMN, on which the GEOLOGICAL TIME SCALE is based, were formed in the Flood, by waves and tides and precipitation.
And the dance of denial advances, now in caps to accent the downbeat,
I did not SAY what I SAID before ...
LOL
It doesn't matter what you said or did not say, there was no flood and there is no evidence of a magic flying carpet flood ... that's just you saying god-did-it while pretending to use natural processes ... except you don't use natural processes ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 426 of 899 (819620)
09-13-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:38 AM


Re: Millions of aternating layers Faith
As I said, put varves on your side. I do not have an answer and don't normally attempt one except to suppose they had to have occurred far more frequently than you allow.
But all you are doing is changing the subject and distracting from my good arguments against the OE/ToE. If you can't answer those then chalk them up to my side.
Actually the thread is about Evidence of the flood and not the ToE -- so that would be you trying to change the subject to escape the hammering you are getting on the flood.
There you are in the Indianopolis 500 race riding a bicycle and you can't keep up with the cars so you start screaming that it is supposed to be a bicycle race ...
ROFLOL
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:38 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 505 of 899 (819721)
09-14-2017 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:03 PM


dancing around the evidence again, it's a Rondo ...
... But I just spent a bit of time reading up on the Green River Formation and I have to admit I had the wrong idea of what it is. I see now that it is part of the strata I am talking about and not something apart from the Flood after all. Mea culpa, I am sorry for the mistake.
And the circle dance continues ...
So now back to Message 381 (reply to faith Message 377):
quote:
I'm aware that the strata were at least in some cases laid down in shallow layers, including those all of one sediment. What's the problem? There would have been a lot of wave action with rising and falling sea water, long long tides, and then when the water was deep and quiet enough precipitation of particles would occur as well.
That does not create alternating layers of fine and coarse material -- any water motion with enough energy to carry coarse material would pick up all the fine material before depositing the coarse material, and if it doesn't have the energy to pick up the fine material then it can't carry the coarse material.
You have been told this before.
And when you pretend that this fantasy magic wave action produces 6,000,000 layers in a couple hundred days it just becomes a real hoot, because that is not "quiet enough precipitation of particles" ... 15,000 layers a day for 400 days? ROFLOL.
Remember Stoke's Law?
quote:
Message 19, The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1):
Settling Velocity and Suspension Velocity(1)
quote:
Every material has its own suspension and settling velocity. The suspension velocity is the speed of water above which the water will pick up the material and hold it in suspension. The settling velocity is the speed below which the material will be dropped out of suspension and will settle out of the water.
The relative sizes of gravel, sand, silt, and clay particles are shown below:
Sand and gravel are both large and dense. In addition, they have a small surface area per unit volume since they are roughly spherical. So these types of particles have a high suspension velocity.
quote:
The connection between particle size and settling rate is expressed by Stoke's Law. This relationship shows that small particles, those exposing high specific surface area (m2 g-1), produce more resistance to settling through the surrounding solution than large particles and, hence, settle at slower velocities
Stoke's Law: V = (D^2g(d1-d2)/(18n)
The formula shows that the settling velocity, V, is directly proportional to the square of the particle's effective diameter, D; the acceleration of gravity, g; and the difference between the density of the particle, d1, and density of the liquid, d2; but inversely proportional to the viscosity (resistance to flow) of the liquid, n. The density of water and its viscosity both change in a manner so that particles settle faster with increased temperature. Hence, it may be necessary to apply temperature correction factors as explained with the procedure.
Stoke's Law can be condensed to V=kD^2 by assuming constant values for all components except the effective diameter of soil particles. Then, for conditions at 30 degrees C, k=11241. For particles size values in centimeters, the formula yields settling velocity, V, in centimeters per second. Because soil particles do not meet the requirements of being smooth spheres, exact conformance to Stoke's Law is not realized.

15,000 layers per day is 6 seconds per layer, 3 seconds coarsest particles fraction, grading to 3 seconds finest particles fraction ... repeat.
'Splain it faith.
Enjoy
ps regarding the fat fish fossil see
CD241: Are varves annular?
CC331: Polystrate fossils and deposition
CC335: Vertical whale fossil

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 655 of 899 (819911)
09-15-2017 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Coyote
09-14-2017 4:51 PM


Re: A charming fat fish proves a lack of imagination if nothing else ...
Mt. St. Helens ash and Hawaiian lava flows.
The sea floor
  • of the atlantic ocean
  • of the pacific ocean
  • of the meditarian ocean
  • of the indian ocean
  • of the arctic ocean
  • and all the seas, bays, inlets, sounds, lakes and ponds around the world
Dust falling from the sky settles to the bottom continuously. Dust that includes ash and smoke particles and that includes radioactive isotopes, isotopes that can be dated to show that indeed the lower the sediment the older it is, just as we know and expect from the law of superposition. And including debris from dead insects, birds, mammals, fishes, algae, sea weeds, etc etc etc
Animals and plant material die and is covered by sediments. If the bottom in anoxic the bodies will be covered gradually as the sediment builds up and builds up around them, eventually covering them. It's so simple.
Nice large area continuous deposits just exactly like we see in rock layers of rocks that once were the bottom of the sea in the past. Rocks that we can date with radiometric methods and again show that the lower strata are older than the upper strata, and again confirming the law of superposition.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Coyote, posted 09-14-2017 4:51 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 09-15-2017 8:02 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 667 of 899 (819924)
09-15-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 656 by Faith
09-15-2017 8:02 AM


Re: A charming fat fish proves a lack of imagination if nothing else ...
and the dance of denial, now accompanied by the full caps shouting ...
THEY ARE NOT ONE SINGLE SEDIMENT ...
Except that they are. That's how they form. It's how the sediment layers in the Grand Canyon formed. You have not shown this is not possible or even not a likely process over many many years. Years that occurred before the 17 million year start of the erosion of the Grand Canyon from west to east, culminating 14 million years ago ... while erosion still occurs in the riverbed.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Faith, posted 09-15-2017 8:02 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 835 of 899 (820283)
09-18-2017 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by Faith
09-16-2017 10:39 AM


Liquified limestone ... does not exist.
The Muav channels were clearly formed after the strata were all in place by liquefied limestone running between the layers.
ROFLOL.
Liquified limestone ... does not exist.
Dissolved limestone redeposits as calcite not limestone, it loses the characteristics of limestone when dissolved.
Melted limestone is metamorphic and the heat turns the limestone to marble, which is not necessarily liquid, but again losing the characteristics of limestone when heated.
Liquified limestone ... does not exist.
Once again you are caught making stuff up.
If the riverbed section is filled with limestone, that occurred after the bed had dried up and then filled with the limestone sediment deposits.
Faith fantasy flying carpet flood explanations are just her metaphor for 'god-did-it.'
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 10:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 836 of 899 (820285)
09-18-2017 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:28 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
See Wikipedia article on "Karst"
Karst is not a type of rock, nor is it a process, method or mechanism, it is a topography, ... so you haven't answered jar's question
And what is the process, procedure, model, method or mechanism that will liquefy limestone?
Inquiring minds want to know what this novel unknown process etc is.
Karst topography is a landscape formed from the dissolution of soluble rocks such as limestone, dolomite, and gypsum. It is characterized by underground drainage systems with sinkholes and caves.[1] It has also been documented for more weathering-resistant rocks, such as quartzite, given the right conditions.
Nor does this explain filling in of riverbeds with fresh limestone that retains the characteristics of limestone (ie not calcite and not marble).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 863 of 899 (820422)
09-20-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by Percy
09-20-2017 6:50 AM


No Cognitive Dissonance? Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
quote:
The Tension of Faith Message 6, Faith: I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible. There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false. It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know.
Which of coarse IS cognitive dissonance. Insulting people is part of cognitive dissonance, refusal to accept objective empirical evidence that contradicts strongly held beliefs is cognitive dissonance, yelling in ALL CAPS is cognitive dissonance, bemoaning that nobody accepts your arguments is cognitive dissonance, repeating falsified arguments as if the refutations never existed is cognitive dissonance, claiming you have presented evidence when none has been presented is cognitive dissonance ... I could go on, but it is quite evident that cognitive dissonance plays a large role in the manner of her posts.
Sorry, but I just could not let this go without comment. The evidence is in this thread, and that's why I am posting it here.
The earth is very, very, very old, and has existed billions of years without even a half vast world-wide flood.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by Percy, posted 09-20-2017 6:50 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 868 of 899 (820430)
09-20-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:03 PM


A charming fat fish proves nothing
So I'm going to ask again, Faith ...
I also found an article claiming to prove that the varves are indeed annual. Well, the fish fossils prove they aren't. ...
Can you explain to me why the fish fossils prove the layers are not annual?
But as I started reading up on it, reading about these very very fine alternating layers of sediments with different amounts of organic matter in them. I encountered a discussion of the fossils preserved in them. Fossils of big fat fish for instance, much bigger than any supposedly annual pair of varves could cover up to their knees as it were. I pondered this for half a second and laughed out loud. These fish all by themselves prove that the varve pairs are not annual because the fish would have rotted away or been eaten within days, weeks or months of being "buried" by this minuscule amount of sediment. It would take at least ten years to cover them to a depth sufficient to provide the environment for fossilization, which of course is way too late.
Unless the bottom was anoxic, a not unusual situation:
quote:
Anoxic waters are areas of sea water, fresh water, or groundwater that are depleted of dissolved oxygen and are a more severe condition of hypoxia. The US Geological Survey defines anoxic groundwater as those with dissolved oxygen concentration of less than 0.5 milligrams per litre.[1] This condition is generally found in areas that have restricted water exchange.
In most cases, oxygen is prevented from reaching the deeper levels by a physical barrier[2] as well as by a pronounced density stratification, in which, for instance, heavier hypersaline waters rest at the bottom of a basin. Anoxic conditions will occur if the rate of oxidation of organic matter by bacteria is greater than the supply of dissolved oxygen.
Anoxic waters are a natural phenomenon,[3] and have occurred throughout geological history. In fact, some postulate that the Permian—Triassic extinction event, a mass extinction of species from world's oceans, resulted from widespread anoxic conditions. At present anoxic basins exist, for example, in the Baltic Sea,[4] and elsewhere (see below). Recently, there have been some indications that eutrophication has increased the extent of the anoxic zones in areas including the Baltic Sea, the Gulf of Mexico,[5] and Hood Canal in Washington State.[6]
... In fact that would make fossilization more likely than oxygenated lakes. Large flat lakes with minimal outlet flow would concentrate salts in the depth (Salt Lake anyone?).
So I can easily explain the existence of fossils that extend through several layers of sediment, with science, with known processes that we can see in the world today, with objective empirical evidence ... without making anything up.
Meanwhile you still have no explanation for the formation of the varve couplets ... which, curiously, is the evidence you need to deal with ... 6 million of them.
Claiming that the magical mystery tour flying carpet flood somehow managed to do this by an unknown, unobserved, unevidenced, scientifically impossible process ... is in fact invoking a miracle, not science. It's the definition of a miracle isn't it? Something that science can't explain?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 891 of 899 (820615)
09-24-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Faith
09-13-2017 7:03 PM


Re: A charming fat fish proves radiometic dating is false cuz the varves aren't annual
Getting no reply from Faith to Message 868 -- more evidence that she just ignores posts that refute her arguments.
Well here's more ... it was even on Fox News:
quote:
Scientists discover 60 ancient shipwrecks in the Black Sea
In early 2015, a team of scientists from the United Kingdom, Bulgaria, Sweden, the United States and Greece set off to investigate the effects of climate change and the impact of sea level changes in the Black Sea since the end of the Earth’s last glacial cycle 12,000 years ago.
What they discovered by chance during their studies was more than they could have ever imagined: 60 shipwrecks dating back 2,500 years, including artifacts from the Byzantine Era, the Middle Ages and the Ottoman Empire.
This week, after nearly three years at sea, the scientists who participated in the Black Sea Maritime Archaeology Project docked their research vessel in the port of Burgas, Bulgaria, and displayed dramatic 3-D printed replicas of those shipwrecks, which represent more than a thousand years of maritime history.
quote:
Ghostly graveyard of 60 perfectly preserved ancient shipwrecks is found by climate scientists at the bottom of the Black Sea
Dozens of perfectly preserved ancient shipwrecks have been found at the bottom of the Black Sea.
A total of 60 wrecks were discovered dating back as far as 2,500 years, including galleys from the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires.
Scientists stumbled upon the graveyard while using underwater robots to survey the effects of climate change along the Bulgarian coast.
Because the Black Sea contains almost no light or oxygen, little life can survive, meaning the wrecks are in excellent condition.
Researchers say their discovery is 'truly unrivalled'. Many of the ships have features that are only known from drawings or written description but never seen until now.
Carvings in the wood of some ships have remained intact for centuries, while well-preserved rope was found aboard one 2,000-year-old Roman vessel.
The researchers had discovered over 40 wrecks across two previous expeditions, but during their latest trip, which returned this month, they uncovered more than 20 new sites, including a 2,000-year-old Roman galley (pictured)
Of particular interest for Faith is the levels of silty sediment on and around the ships, which are in various degrees of being buried ... without rotting and without being flattened.
Compare this to the Green River varves gradually covering corpses on the bottom.
... Fossils of big fat fish for instance, much bigger than any supposedly annual pair of varves could cover up to their knees as it were. I pondered this for half a second and laughed out loud. These fish all by themselves prove that the varve pairs are not annual because the fish would have rotted away or been eaten within days, weeks or months of being "buried" by this minuscule amount of sediment. ...
... Well, the fish fossils prove they aren't. ...
These ships are much bigger than the annual deposition of sediment could cover, even 2000 years of annual deposits have not covered them yet, but they are still preserved in good condition ... by the anoxic conditions at the bottom of the black sea.
But they have certainly been buried enough to cover a fish corpse.
This should put "paid" to her erroneous conclusion that fat fish proved the layers weren't annual and her further leap of faith conclusion that it meant radiometric dating was wrong.
This evidence is "proof positive" that organic material can last on the bottom under anoxic conditions for thousands of years, gradually become buried by the slow rain of small particles over millennia, and preserved for future discovery.
... I pondered this for half a second and laughed out loud. ...
It is said that he who laughs last laughs best.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : db
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 7:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024