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Author
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Topic: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 246 of 638 (725337)
04-25-2014 9:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
04-25-2014 12:58 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
ringo writes:
Ed67 writes: The CODE for building proteins necessary for life. In a molecule. Now you can't say that about salt.
Of course you can. The only "code" is the arrangement of the molecule. Every molecule has an arrangement which determines its reactions. What's so hard to understand about that? If you could stop being hypnotized by words like "code" and "embedded", maybe you could start to understand the chemistry. You are desperate to squash the idea of a code embedded in the DNA/RNA molecule. Where do you think I got those quotes from? Did you click the links? It's not Creationist Propaganda - it's right in front of your face, from mainstream scientific sources.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 241 by ringo, posted 04-25-2014 12:58 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 248 of 638 (725340)
04-25-2014 10:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 247 by subbie
04-25-2014 10:11 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
subbie writes: Ed67 writes: Where do you think I got those quotes from?
Well, I know you got one of them from James Watson, who thinks intelligent design is only for the uneducated. It's almost like you and Watson were using the word "code" in completely different ways. Food for thought. ...Yes, it's food for thought that even a committed materialist must admit that they've found a code in DNA. What's wrong with the rest of you guys?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 247 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 10:11 PM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 250 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 11:10 PM | | Ed67 has replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 249 of 638 (725341)
04-25-2014 11:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 245 by Taq
04-25-2014 5:56 PM
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RE: Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Taq writes: I don't see a code. Can you please describe it for me? Here, I'll let the good folks at the University of Washington tell you what they see...
quote:
Since the genetic code was deciphered in the 1960s, scientists have assumed that it was used exclusively to write information about proteins. UW scientists were stunned to discover that genomes use the genetic code to write two separate languages. One describes how proteins are made, and the other instructs the cell on how genes are controlled. One language is written on top of the other, which is why the second language remained hidden for so long. For over 40 years we have assumed that DNA changes affecting the genetic code solely impact how proteins are made, said Stamatoyannopoulos. Now we know that this basic assumption about reading the human genome missed half of the picture. These new findings highlight that DNA is an incredibly powerful information storage device, which nature has fully exploited in unexpected ways.
Scientists discover double meaning in genetic code | UW News And here's the opening sentences of the abstract:
quote:
Genomes contain both a genetic code specifying amino acids and a regulatory code specifying transcription factor (TF) recognition sequences. We used genomic deoxyribonuclease I footprinting to map nucleotide resolution TF occupancy across the human exome in 81 diverse cell types. We found that ~15% of human codons are dual-use codons (duons) that simultaneously specify both amino acids and TF recognition sites.
Just a moment... Two different codes now! Sounds pretty complex to me. And the codes are specified to produce different results. Here we go again, leading, recent research uncovers more of the specified complexity of the DNA molecule. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 245 by Taq, posted 04-25-2014 5:56 PM | | Taq has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 313 by Taq, posted 04-30-2014 1:35 PM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 251 of 638 (725343)
04-25-2014 11:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 250 by subbie
04-25-2014 11:10 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
subbie writes: You keep quoting James Watson as if his comments support your position when he has explicitly rejected your position and you ask what's wrong with us. As i've established, Watson's factual findings support my position. His personal opinion is irrelevant.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 250 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 11:10 PM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 252 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 11:30 PM | | Ed67 has replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 253 of 638 (725355)
04-26-2014 8:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 252 by subbie
04-25-2014 11:30 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
subbie writes: Ed67 writes: As i've established, Watson's factual findings support my position. His personal opinion is irrelevant.
I see. So your understanding of the implication of DNA is superior to that of one of the people who discovered its structure. Curiouser. You're curiousest 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 252 by subbie, posted 04-25-2014 11:30 PM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 254 by subbie, posted 04-26-2014 8:21 AM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 260 of 638 (725397)
04-26-2014 9:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
04-26-2014 11:59 AM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
ringo writes:
Ed67 writes: You are desperate to squash the idea of a code embedded in the DNA/RNA molecule.
All I'm saying is that the "code" that's "embedded" in DNA is its structure - and that every other molecule has its own structure too, so every molecule has a "code" that's "embedded" in it exactly the same way.
Ed67 writes: Where do you think I got those quotes from?
I'm assuming that you got the quotes accurately from Crick and/or Watson. I don't know where you got your misunderstanding of those quotes. They don't mean what you think they mean. Since you don't understand chemistry, you can't expect to understand quotes about chemistry.
Did you notice the one from the University of Washington? And, since you know so much about chemistry, and are dying to share it, would you please explain your statement:
ringo writes: ...so every molecule has a "code" that's "embedded" in it exactly the same way [as DNA]. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 258 by ringo, posted 04-26-2014 11:59 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 261 by RAZD, posted 04-26-2014 9:28 PM | | Ed67 has replied | | | Message 297 by ringo, posted 04-28-2014 11:49 AM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 262 of 638 (725399)
04-26-2014 9:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 261 by RAZD
04-26-2014 9:28 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
I wasn't talking to you, turnip head.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 261 by RAZD, posted 04-26-2014 9:28 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
DA writes: But it's not extra, that's the point that ringo's trying to make. You couldn't, for example, remove the "information" in the DNA but leave the chemistry, or remove the chemistry but leave the "information". You are correct. The code necessary to sustain life is integrated with the chemistry of the DNA molecule, of course. Marvellous, isn't it?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 314 by Taq, posted 04-30-2014 1:38 PM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 266 of 638 (725407)
04-26-2014 11:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 265 by subbie
04-26-2014 10:53 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
Is that an invitation, or a threat?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 265 by subbie, posted 04-26-2014 10:53 PM | | subbie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 267 by subbie, posted 04-26-2014 11:15 PM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 268 of 638 (725411)
04-26-2014 11:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
04-25-2014 12:58 PM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
ringo writes: Ed67 writes: The CODE for building proteins necessary for life. In a molecule. Now you can't say that about salt.
Of course you can. The only "code" is the arrangement of the molecule. Every molecule has an arrangement which determines its reactions. What's so hard to understand about that? Uhh, sorry ringo cuz I know that you're a real chemistry enthusiast, but I have to tell you: SALT DOES NOT CONTAIN THE CODE FOR BUILDING OF PROTEINS.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 241 by ringo, posted 04-25-2014 12:58 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 284 of 638 (725454)
04-27-2014 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 258 by ringo
04-26-2014 11:59 AM
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Re: What does the CODE in DNA do?
ringo writes:
All I'm saying is that... every molecule has a "code" that's "embedded" in it exactly the same way.[as DNA] Do you have any citations, evidence, or explanation to back up this statement? I'm still waiting... Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 258 by ringo, posted 04-26-2014 11:59 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 285 by RAZD, posted 04-27-2014 1:42 PM | | Ed67 has not replied | | | Message 299 by ringo, posted 04-28-2014 12:02 PM | | Ed67 has not replied |
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 3358 days) Posts: 159 Joined: 04-14-2014
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Message 287 of 638 (725479)
04-27-2014 4:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 272 by Tangle
04-27-2014 3:11 AM
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Tangle writes: To get back to the discussion, it seems pretty easy to me to accept Demski's meaning of the terms Complex Specified Information. His own example is pretty clear: "A single letter of the alphabet is specified without being complex. A long sentence of random letters is complex without being specified. A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified." He's just saying that life looks designed therefore it is. That argument is no more than the Watchmaker argument and can be debated as though it is. His attempt to move the argument further was to introduce mathematics into the game and claim that if he calculates the probability of something happening by chance to be less than 10^150, then it requires a designer. The problem is therefore mathematical not semantic and if you can't discuss it mathematically, there's no point proceding beyond the Watchmaker stage. Wrong. You JUST QUOTED Dembski in saying that a long string of random letters is complex but not specified, disqualifying it as a candidate for design. Obviously there's more to Dembski's argument than raw probability. There's also SPECIFICITY. Your over - simplification is a SRAW MAN.
Tangle writes: Sadly for ID, those that have considered mathematically and are qualified to do so, tell us that it's bunk. Do you expect us to take YOUR word for it? Please provide citations. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 272 by Tangle, posted 04-27-2014 3:11 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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