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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 35 of 834 (828357)
02-16-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by frako
02-16-2018 5:10 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Hi frako,

frako writes:

If america started reading the well regulated part it might offer some relief but you have so many guns its doubtful you could keep them from the wrong hands anymore. If i remember right there are more guns in america then there are people.

frako I kind of shy away from this topic but though I would comment here.

The civilian militia is made up of every person 18 and older. That even includes 22 million former military people that are trained.

I raised 2 sons in a house where every gun in the house was loaded at all times. They were exposed to what a gun would do by the time they were 4 years old. They were taught what a gun was for and by the time they were six they could use one. My oldest son killed his first deer when he was 7 years old. The younger son never cared about hunting although he learned how to hunt in case he would need to be able to forge for food.

When it comes to the ar15 it is not the best weapon to cause mass damage. Yet it is the one that is always mentioned.

A shotgun with 4" 00 buckshot shells carrying 15 pellets in each shell would do the most damage. Such a weapon with an improved cylinder bore would cover a 6x6 piece of plywood at 50 yards. Anything in that area would receive a lot of damage. There are shotguns that will handle 8 & 9 shells in a tube magazine. Some take clips like the AR15 with 20 round clips and a drum with 28 rounds.

28 rounds could be fired as fast as you could pull the trigger. Dispensing 420 pellets in less than a minute. A shotgun is a scatter gun that covers a lot of square feet with 1 round fired.

It is estimated that between 50 and 100 million households have a weapon in them. I would think that estimate is very low as there are millions of homes that have weapons that no one knows they are in the home but the owner. It is estimated that there is 22 million military veterans each household would have at least 1 weapon for each person in the house. Just arming the wives would be 44 million armed citizens. If they had 2 married children that were armed that would bring the total to 88 million. So military families their children and grand children would account for over 100 million homes that would be armed. That is almost 1/3 of the us population that is armed. It is estimated that there are 357 million firearms in America.

Now let me get on my soap box for a minute and express my opinion. I believe in God and that one day I will stand before Him and give an account for my life and deeds here on earth. That causes me to have a different worldview that a lot of people as I have to be accountable for my actions. But I am old and was taught a lot different that the youth of today. I was raised to work, mind my manners, speak when spoken too. Have respect for my elders using yes mam and no mam, yes sir, and no sir. I was taught if something was mine I could use it, but if it belonged to someone else I had to ask permission to use it. Most folks today have no respect for themselves or anyone else. No respect for the property of others. Most of the people up to 40 years old have been raised by TV and today it is the cell phone. I dare say more than half of the people in the us are addicted to their cell phone. And that is where they get their news that is usually bogus, like false.

I think we have gone to far to come back to sanity. Due to the fact that about 75 % of the people today have become their own God and they can and do decide what is good and what is evil, and their threshold between the two is at the ceiling therefore it is ok to do whatever they pleases. They make their own rules and there is no consequences.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by frako, posted 02-16-2018 5:10 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 02-16-2018 1:06 PM ICANT has not yet responded
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 154 of 834 (830455)
03-30-2018 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
11-16-2017 1:12 PM


Problem
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

Speaking personally, I observe that we live in a violent society, one that is often on edge.

Have you pondered why we live in such a violent society?

When people are taught that there is no higher authority than themselves and they come to believe that they can do anything they desire to do. They then lose respect for themselves. When they have no respect for themselves they will have no respect for others or other peoples property.

They reach this position when they are not required to obey any rules or regulations. And when they do no obey rules there is no punishment.

Now a little information on the subject of guns and rules.
Do gun laws reduce violence?
In the early 1900s, when few laws existed homicide was at its lowest.
In the 1910's and 20's some states passed laws regulating purchase and carrying of handguns but homicide and suicide tended to rise not go down.
Machine guns and sawed-off shotguns were banned in 1934 but rates did not go down.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 required records of the buyer's identity and banned sales by mail or to felons or mental patients. Homicide and suicide rose after its passage.
A waiting period for handgun purchases (the Brady law) and restriction of "assault" weapons went into effect in 1994.
Two studies of the Brady law showed no effect.

In 2014 there was a total of 11,981, homicide's, 8,124 of those were by firearms.
There was 246 of those death caused by AK 47's and AR 15's and all other rifles.
The AK 47's and AR 15's are what everyone wants to ban.
During this same time 1,567 homicides were committed with knives and other cutting instruments.
During the same time 660 homicides were committed with personal weapons such as fist, feet, etc.
During the same time 435 homicides were committed with blunt objects, clubs, hammers, etc.
During the same year there were 32,675 deaths by automobiles.

Cutting instruments were used 6.3999 to one rifle usage.
Personal weapons were used 2.68 to one rifle usage.
Blunt objects were used 1.76 to one rifle usage.
Automobile deaths occurred 132.82 to one rifle death.

I have never heard anyone advocate we ban knives, fists, feet, clubs, and hammers. Nor has anyone suggested we go back to the horse and buggy days to save lives.

But let me state here that the AK 47 and AR 15 are not assault weapons unless it does have the bump stock to make it fire automatically. The bump stock would affect the accuracy of the rifle.

In the military I used assault weapons which were fully automatic, but they were banned in 1934 from private ownership without a special license to own one. We had some that would fire at the rate of 900 times per minute. We just did not have clips that would hold that many bullets. We did have weapons that would fire fast enough and long enough to begin to melt the barrel if you did not release the trigger. That is an assault weapon.

There are those that propose to repeal the 2nd amendment. That would take 38 states to ratify such a change,.

The reason for the 2nd amendment in the first place was that every man would be armed which would cause any country contemplating an invasion they would not do so knowing there was a gun in every house. It was also to make sure that those in power would never be able to take over the country and install a dictatorship.

To accomplish such a feat all the guns would have to be taken away from the people so they could not resist.

As long as the people are armed we will not have a dictator although there are a lot of people in Washington who think they are our dictator's. In other words they don't work for the voters they think they are elected to go to Washington and vote their conscience regardless of what their constituents want.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-16-2017 1:12 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Modulous, posted 03-30-2018 2:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 175 of 834 (830523)
04-02-2018 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Modulous
03-30-2018 2:57 PM


Re: Problem
Hi Mod,

Mod writes:

America is one of the most religious countries in Western Civilization.

Religion does not fix anything. In fact it usually makes a mess out of things.

You and other here point out many times all the bad things that have been done in the name of religion.

The worst part of that is I have to agree many bad things have been done in the name of religion.

But none of those people were followers of Jesus. Even though many may have claimed too. But they can not point to Jesus doing any of those things. The only time He could possibly have been accused of doing something bad was when He chased out the money changers from the temple because they had made His house a den of thieves.

Mod writes:

Are you saying that since god is imaginary

God is not imaginary He is real. Where did you get such an idea?

Mod writes:

religious people are being taught that they are the highest authority?

I don't know what religious people are being taught.
I do know that a lot of people are being taught they are no more than a worm. They just evolved from a lower life form. Because of their teaching they have decided they are their own boss and no one can tell them what to do or not do. So we have come to the point in history that taking a life is nothing. If life is worth nothing then there is nothing that is important. You just live and then you die. You might as well enjoy the trip between your birth and death as there is nothing else. So just take what you want and don't worry about the consequences.

Mod writes:

or you had something in mind I can't decipher.

The only thing I had in my mind are that there are people who have decided they are their own god. No one can tell them what to do or not to do. Parents have no authority, laws don't mean anything. You want be a celebrity, no problem. Just get a AR15 find a crowded place and kill 40 or 50 people then kill yourself. You will be remembered for many years to come. At least you will have made a mark in history.

Mod writes:

Almost like there was some reason for that.


Well knives, fists and feet, clubs and hammers kill a lot more people that the so called assault rifles.

Mod writes:

Probably because it wouldn't save lives.

Why wouldn't getting rid of automobiles save lives. There has been a total of 3,613,732 motor vehicle fatalities in the United States from 1899 to 2013. Add another 105,690 for 14, 15, and 16.
The 3,719,422 deaths by automobile is over three times the number killed in all the wars the US has been involved in by 419,422.

I never heard of anyone being killed by two wagons running together.

Mod writes:

That's a piece of pedantry that's no longer particularly relevant. What someone calls the weapon, doesn't change the weapon.

But the masses don't know the difference in an assault AR15 and a semi-automatic AR15.

Mod writes:

And yet not even the majority of houses has a gun - and invading the USA does not seem to be on anyone's agenda.

Why would they have it on their mind? They would be facing a grave task which they would lose.
At least 50% of the households in America has at least one gun in the house. But if there was a need for more households to have weapons in their homes the 3% of owners who own half of the weapons would share with their neighbors.

Mod writes:

That wouldn't work, and it hasn't worked. Furthermore: It's not like Hitler's private militia were waving bananas around.

But the people could not resist as Hitler had confiscated all the weapons the public had from everyone that was not loyal to him. Confiscation of weapons is the first step to taking over a country from the inside.

If all weapons were confiscated in the US with only the police and military holding all the weapons. It would not be hard for a dictator to come along and get a majority of those armed people on his/her side and remove the weapons from all the police and military personal not loyal to the group and there would be no resistance to the government.

Ask the people in Iran why they don't rise up and change their government? They tried a few years back but had only a few weapons and the US would not supply them with weapons and because of that thousands were slaughtered.

Mod writes:

Exactly. And anybody who takes up arms against them finds out why that doesn't really work all that well.

You are talking about the civil war now. That was a whole different ball game.

As I said it would take 38 states to ratify a constitutional change to remove or modify the second amendment. That means it would only take 13 non ratifying states to block the change.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Modulous, posted 03-30-2018 2:57 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Modulous, posted 04-02-2018 12:21 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 04-03-2018 11:44 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 176 of 834 (830524)
04-02-2018 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
03-30-2018 5:49 PM


Re: The root cause is spiritual
Hi Faith

Faith writes:

Not sure where it started but getting prayer thrown out of the schools thanks to Madalyn Murray O'Hare is often thought to be the starting point. We've been throwing out all the cultural Christian trappings on the basis of the First Amendment of all things, getting rid of the Ten Commandments and anything else that might remind us that w are spiritual beings answerable to our Creator.

Ms O'Hare was not the beginning but it was a profound change in course.

But I believe the gospel that was being taught to the young people at that time was more of the driving force to get us to where we are today. They were being taught evolution and that we shared a common ancestor with gorillas. They begin to question God and then they were told God was not necessary to create the universe.

When they became convinced of evolution they began to think differently about authority and so they rebelled. We had a few riots in which the guilty parties were not punished. This gave the animals called humans the ability to be able to do those things without fear. They did not fear God and his laws, nor the laws of man. They began to make their own laws to suit their own needs. Add drugs, alcohol and sex to the mix and we have a bunch of people who have no respect for themselves or anyone else.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 03-30-2018 5:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 188 of 834 (830738)
04-05-2018 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Percy
04-03-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Problem
Hi Percy

Been a long time since you hollered at me.

Percy writes:

Sure they were. You think no one doing "bad things...in the name of religion" were followers of Jesus? Followers of Jesus are acknowledged sinners, and sins run the gamut from white lies to murder to supporting Trump.

The following quote is what I was talking about that you are questioning.

quote:
You and other here point out many times all the bad things that have been done in the name of religion.

The worst part of that is I have to agree many bad things have been done in the name of religion.

But none of those people were followers of Jesus. Even though many may have claimed too. But they can not point to Jesus doing any of those things. The only time He could possibly have been accused of doing something bad was when He chased out the money changers from the temple because they had made His house a den of thieves.


You or anyone else has never pointed to any deeds preformed by religionist and showed where Jesus did those things or told his disciples to do them.

A Christian is a person that is living a life like Christ did. Show me where he killed anyone because of what they believed or practiced.
He healed, fed, and comforted others and told His followers to do likewise.

Percy writes:

Ah, I see you have your own special definition of a follower of Jesus. Can I assume that "has done bad things" means one isn't a follower of Jesus? So in your eyes a follower of Jesus commits no sins?

No such thing. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
I am a saved sinner, and I do not claim to be a Christian.

I do claim to be born again and trying to follow Jesus.
I have never done bodily harm to anyone that was not trying to do bodily harm to me or my family or other members of the human race. In those cases I will use all the training I have had to protect them.

Percy writes:

Ah, another part of your special definition of follower of Jesus: someone whose only sins were ones Jesus committed himself.

If I am following the example He set I will not do those things. And since I am born again my want too and my desires have been altered by His example.

Percy writes:

So one can only be a follower of Jesus if the only sin one has committed is overturning the tables of the money changers.

You may now commence denying that you said what you just said.

Why would I want to deny anything I have said? Your miss representations of what I said are something else.

But I guess I am just as guilty of overturning the money changers as Jesus was. I have been called to pastor Churches that had bake sales, supper sales, car washes, and garage sales to raise money for the Church. When I arrived those thing ceased as God's work is to be supported by the members by their tithes and offerings. Not commercial enterprise.

Percy writes:

God is not real but imaginary? Where did you get such an idea? Books by ancient nomads don't count.

I have met God the Son in person in 1965, so no He is not imaginary.

Percy writes:

Oops, as a teacher of religious people you must be dissembling (hint: that's a sin, presumably one Jesus didn't commit).

I do not pastor religious people. If a religious person comes to the church I pastor after one sermon they will usually go somewhere else to practice their religion.

I pastor a bunch of saved sinners who are trying to live a life like Christ did and set the example for us to do.

If a religious person comes along and sees we have something besides religion that they are interested in, we are glad to share the gospel (good news) with them.

According to Gallup 90% of the people in the US still believe in God.

According to ABC News 83% of people identify themselves as Christians.

According to Gallup when asked if they (Christians) consider themselves to be born-again or evangelical 42% said yes.

Evangelical "Criteria". Faith sharing, Biblical Inerrancy and Born again.

However when asked 3 questions on evangelical doctrine only 22% of Americans fit the description of an evangelical.

When limited to Protestants or unaffiliated Christians the numbers drop to 18%

When limited to those who have never been Protestants or claimed to be unaffiliated but are Bible believing, Bible practicing, saved sinners we fellowship with the number fall further to about 4%

Some of that 18% do not practice what they say they believe. So there is about 65% that I would classify as religious that has nothing in common with what I believe and practice.

They are the ones I would call hypocrites as they claim to be something they are not.

Percy writes:

What criteria separate lower from higher?

I was under the impression that according to evolution that the first life form was a single cell something. From that simple single cell life form all life on earth began to exist.

Is that wrong?

According to Darwin that is wrong as he did not know how many life forms God started with, but they were what all the rest evolved from.

Percy writes:

So you're arguing that people are concluding that because they "are no more than a worm" and "just evolved from a lower life form" that they are "their own boss and no one can tell them what to do or not do." How does the conclusion follow from the premises?

What I am saying is that since most have been taught and believe that they have evolved from that simple single cell life form and there is no God to one day judge them and to reward them for what they have done in this life, they are their own god. Whatever they do is ok as they have to answer to no one. Laws don't mean anything today and when they are broken there is no consequences for doing so.

Percy writes:

Not sure, but are you maybe returning to the topic here? irregardless, again, how does this conclusion frollow from the premises?

My point is that most of last 2 generations have been raised without any restraints. They have been taught by example that life is worthless. There have been 60,313,424 abortions performed since Roe vs Wade. Our young people know that if a fetus is carried to term a child is produced. So they also know that if the pregnancy is terminated that child is not born. So they don't bother about the argument of when life begins, they just know it ends prematurely or later in life. Thus they become hardened an have no respect for life. They see people lie, cheat, and steal, riot, vandalize businesses break all kinds of laws and no one is punished. They then conclude they can choose to do anything they desire and there will be no consequences. If you die so what, we all die sometime?

Percy writes:

The logic seems okay, but you haven't shown that "life is worth nothing," especially from the perspective of people, who in general the world over seem to value life a great deal

Percy, do you believe any of the shooters in the mass shootings had any respect for the life of the innocent victims they killed and maimed?

As far as that goes do you think anyone who commits murder has any respect for the life of their victim? If they did they would still be alive.

The only life that most of those people have respect is for themselves, some don't even respect their own life s they end it also.

Percy writes:

Where in anything you said above did you show that people are caused to believe there is "nothing else"?

Percy you are part of the 83% who believe in God unless I misunderstood you being a deist. So you may well believe in something other than life and death such as a life after this one.

But the people I have been talking about do not believe in God or a life after this life is over. When this life is over it is over for them as far as they are concerned right now.

Percy writes:

I've heard jail is an unpleasant place - are you sure you want to advise people to "just take what you want and don't worry about the consequences"?

I was not giving advice. Just stating the fact that many people live their life believing that.

Have you ever seen a rioter that vandalized property and took what they wanted arrested, charged, and jailed for committing such a crime even though they were shown on TV committing the crime?

Percy writes:

A lot of TV preachers seem to have this problem.

Yes, and a lot of them that are not on TV have that problem. There are thousands of them in the 65% I mentioned earlier.

Percy writes:

Oh, you mean Trump.

When I made the statement I was thinking about rioters and looters. But I can think of a multitude of other instances. Just a couple...

One would be people entering this country by walking across our border. Also those who come to our country and overstay their visas. The people who hire undocumented workers as they are breaking e-verify laws passed by congress and signed by President Clinton. I lived and worked overseas for 15 years so I know how other countries handle those who enter their country illegally or overstay visas.

Percy writes:

You deserve an award for rambling all over the place. So let me make sure I've got the logic straight here. People are being taught they're on the same level as worms and evolved from lower life forms, this causes them to think they're their own boss and that taking a life is nothing, therefore there is "nothing else" and life should be enjoyed with no worry about consequences, which leads to people who think they're their own God, so for the sake of celebrity they commit mass murder. Do I have that right?

That is close enough. Short version, There is a way that seemeth right unto a man.... Proverbs 14:12 Mankind chooses to do things the way that seems right to them.

JPercy writes:

Way to completely miss the point. You should have asked yourself why there are no efforts to ban knives, fists and feet, clubs and hammers. Could it be because no person with a knife, even a hundred knives, has ever killed 58 and wounded 851? Has any person with a knife ever even killed 17 and wounded 17? The 2014 Kumming knife attack in Japan that killed 31 and wounded 140 was carried out by 8 perpetrators, which is 4 killed and 18 wounded per perpetrator. How many might they have killed and wounded had they been armed with AR-15s?

No but the fact remains that each year more than 9 People are killed by knives, fists, feet, clubs, and hammers for each person killed by a rifle.

So in your estimation which is the most dangerous weapons to mankind?

Percy writes:

You're again missing the point. Automobiles provide transportation, AR-15s kill people. We can't get rid of automobiles without having a massive negative impact on the economy and quality of life, something that would in itself cause a great deal of loss of life. But eliminating AR-15s and the like would have a minuscule economic impact but eliminate many mass murders.

This country got along without automobiles for a long time.

You and others rant about AR15's and say the others don't matter.
When you add deaths by auto's to the numbers above you have over 141 persons killed by those means to 1 person killed by a rifle of all kinds.

Percy writes:

And does an AR-15, a weapon of war, have any use beyond killing people and providing recreation for gun nuts? Can you use an AR-15 to slice onions? Hammer a nail? Knit a sweater? Walk to the store?

I don't think an AR15 is a decent weapon of war. Not even the one that will fire full automatic. If I shoot you I want you dead not wounded. Therefore I want a weapon that will fire a bullet that will penetrate your body armor and kill you. If I just wound you, you might be able to shoot and kill me instead.

Percy writes:

Would that efforts to improve gun safety were as ambitious.

If we could get people to obey the two commandments Jesus gave to the Church the problem of murders and slaughter would be prevented.

1. Love the Lord thy God with all your mind, body, and spirit.
2. Love thy neighbor as much as you love yourself.

If everybody just obeyed the second one there would be no problems and we could go back to sleeping with unlocked doors.

Percy writes:

Anticipating the apocalypse, I see.

No, just speaking of being prepared. A stitch in time saves nine. Didn't your grandmother teach you that?

Percy writes:

Then gun deaths in the US would decline precipitously.


The criminals would still have weapons so the guns death would go down very little.

Percy writes:

Civil war and revolution are two different things.

What is the difference?

Each group is trying to impose their will on the other group.

Percy writes:

How come it's the most religious who most strongly advocate implements of death?

Because they have the most to lose and are not willing to put themselves in a position to not be able to resist opposing force.

This country was founded because the British government and the Government controlled Church was killing people who did not agree with their form of worship. They burned alive true believers at the stake.

Those people came to this country and found the United States. They wrote our Constitution in a way that the Government could not establish a Church run by the government that could require people to worship as the government saw fit. They further provided the second amendment to grantee that if such did occur the people would have means to resist and protect themselves.

You want me to give up my weapons and trust the government to take care of me. You may trust them, but I don't.

I hope that answers your question as to why some people advocate very strongly for retaining their weapons.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 04-03-2018 11:44 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Percy, posted 04-07-2018 1:39 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 254 by Aussie, posted 09-27-2018 1:29 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 261 of 834 (840372)
09-27-2018 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Aussie
09-27-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Problem
Hi Aussie,

Welcome to EvC since this is my first post in answer to you.

Aussie writes:

There's just no end to the things they say with a straight face! I can't wait to share this one around the office...

What amazes me is how some people can read a very long post and snatch out a couple of lines and make fun of them.

ICANT writes:

If I shoot you I want you dead not wounded. Therefore I want a weapon that will fire a bullet that will penetrate your body armor and kill you.

If you understood what I said you would realize I was talking about someone who was trying to kill me.

Please notice the first word of my statement. IF, now realize I have never pointed a weapon at any living thing I did not intend to kill.

I would much rather love you to death if you would let me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Aussie, posted 09-27-2018 1:29 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Aussie, posted 10-02-2018 12:40 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 303 of 834 (840446)
09-29-2018 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Percy
04-03-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Problem
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

Sure they were. You think no one doing "bad things...in the name of religion" were followers of Jesus? Followers of Jesus are acknowledged sinners, and sins run the gamut from white lies to murder to supporting Trump.

Show me where Jesus did any bad things in the name of religion.

Jesus defines who His followers are.

quote:
John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.


So to be a follower of Jesus we must follow Him which means we can't do the things we want to do.

Yes there have been many times in my life I was not following Jesus. But He loved me just the same, and many times He chastised me for my disobedience.

I am just glad He gave me eternal life when I accepted His offer of a free full pardon for my sins. Else I would be in bad shape.

Now I know you have said Jesus is a myth. It would make no difference if He was a myth anyone living a life like your myth would be living a perfect life in this world. But one day when you meet Him you will know He is no myth.

Maybe it is considered a sin by you for a person to support Trump but the last time I checked my 401k was a lot better than it was in 2015.

Percy writes:

So one can only be a follower of Jesus if the only sin one has committed is overturning the tables of the money changers.
You may now commence denying that you said what you just said.

Why would I want to deny what I said.

Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple was not a sin.
Did you read what you were commenting on?

quote:
The only time He could possibly have been accused of doing something bad was when He chased out the money changers from the temple because they had made His house a den of thieves.

That is what I said. So if they had made His house a den of thieves what was wrong with Him chasing them out of His house. If you were letting someone use your house and came back and saw they had set up a meth factory in your house would you have the right to chase them out?

I don't teach religious people. I teach sinners. Religious people won't attend where I teach more than one or two services. They don't like to be told they are sinners.

Percy writes:

So you're arguing that people are concluding that because they "are no more than a worm" and "just evolved from a lower life form" that they are "their own boss and no one can tell them what to do or not do." How does the conclusion follow from the premises?

The premise is that there is no God, that means no life after death on earth. Thus no judgment or punishment for anything they do in this life. If there is no judgment or punishment what difference does it make what a person does here in this life?

Percy writes:

Not sure, but are you maybe returning to the topic here? irregardless, again, how does this conclusion frollow from the premises?

As I said in the previous paragraph.

In the old west if a person killed another person they were usually hung the next day. As time went on the time grew between conviction and execution. Today in states that still have the death penalty it is usually 25 years before a sentence is carried out. So what is the big deal about taking someone's life? Especially if there is no judgment of God.

Percy writes:

Where in anything you said above did you show that people are caused to believe there is "nothing else"?

I was talking about people who do not believe in God, heaven (a place people are rewarded for accepting God's free full pardon) and hell (a place people are punished for not accepting the free full pardon they are offered by God).

Percy writes:

I've heard jail is an unpleasant place - are you sure you want to advise people to "just take what you want and don't worry about the consequences"?

All the folks in jail live a lot better than those folks that live on the streets and many areas of our cities.

But I don't advise anyone to do anything they want too.

I advise everybody including you to believe in God and accept His offer of a free pardon. Then try to live a life like Jesus lived while He walked on the earth. Then when you fall down get up brush yourself off and resume that journey.

Percy writes:

A lot of TV preachers seem to have this problem.


Most of them do as their God is money.

Percy writes:

Oh, you mean Trump.

Not really. I was thinking about Hillary.

Percy writes:

Do I have that right?

Yep.

Percy writes:

Way to completely miss the point. You should have asked yourself why there are no efforts to ban knives, fists and feet, clubs and hammers. Could it be because no person with a knife, even a hundred knives, has ever killed 58 and wounded 851? Has any person with a knife ever even killed 17 and wounded 17? The 2014 Kumming knife attack in Japan that killed 31 and wounded 140 was carried out by 8 perpetrators, which is 4 killed and 18 wounded per perpetrator. How many might they have killed and wounded had they been armed with AR-15s?

First things first the AR15 you can purchase is not the AR15 that is used in war by our military.

The fact still remains that more people are killed with fists and feet, clubs and hammers kill a lot more people than the so called assault rifles.

Percy writes:

Here's a list of horse and buggy accidents of the type that the horse and buggy era endured, many resulting in death. Getting kicked by a horse would become more common, too.

Six pages 50 to page = approximately 300 accidents between 1834 and 1949, a span of 115 years.

I lived in Tampa Fla for 10 years just 3 blocks from Tampa Stadium. The Stadium is on Dale Mabry Hwy. Going north on Dale Mabry to the intersection with waters you find the intersection that was the worlds worst intersection for 8 of those 10 years averaging 3 wrecks per day. They outdid the buggies in 101 days.

Percy writes:

Why does a civilian need either one?

No civilian needs a fully automatic weapon.

But for protection, hunting and sport shooting the AR15 is decent.

I prefer my 12 ga. Remington Magpul 14" barrel shotgun with a drum magazine for protection or with the 28" barrel for hunting with a 3 shot magazine. Each 00 buckshot has 15 pellets about the size of the AR15 pellet. With slugs it becomes a bad dude.

Percy writes:

You are like way off. While personal gun ownership is up because more people own multiple guns, household gun presence is down and declining, about 30% right now:

How do you know how many homes have weapons in them?

If you were to call me up doing a survey and ask me if I had a gun in the house or how many guns I had in my house I would tell you none.
All my friends would tell you the same.

Percy writes:

Anticipating the apocalypse, I see.

No, just prepared. My grandmother taught me a stitch in time saves nine.

Percy writes:

You're repeating a false Ben Carson claim

No, I was just going by the stories my grandfather told me. That some of his kin related to him after they got out of Germany. Besides how did they round up six million Jews and kill them?
If they had arms there would have been a lot less that was part of the holocaust.

Percy writes:

Then gun deaths in the US would decline precipitously.

What makes you think gun death would decline?
The people that would turn over their guns are not going to kill anybody anyway. If they were they would be dead as that is the only way anybody would get their weapons.

The crooks would still have plenty of weapons as long as weapons were made. And if the factories were shut down they would simply build their own. If I remember correctly you can go to the hardware store and purchase enough material to build a 38 or 45 cal. single shot weapon for less than $15.

It is a pipe dream to think confiscation would do any good.
It would probably cause a lot of deaths to try it.

Percy writes:

You mean the 2009 election in Iran? 36 were killed according to Wikipedia.

Are those who edit Wikipedia living in Iran? Or do they take what the government tells them?

And that is not the first time they tried.

Percy writes:

How come it's the most religious who most strongly advocate implements of death?

Due to the fact that we have the most to lose.
Over 60 million Christians were killed in the 1200 years after the crucifixion of Christ. Most of them at the hands of the Church State governments that existed during that time. When our forefathers left Europe and came to America they came for the purpose of being able to worship God without interference from the government. That is the reason for the second amendment as well as the separation of Church and State statement, which is one of the most misunderstood statement in our constitution. The constitution guarantees the government is not to start a state run religion. In other words the government is to stay out of Church business.

There are too many people who have died and braved many dangers that we, including you can have the freedoms we enjoy today to go back to the government controlling our lives.

Is that what you would like.

It is great to be able to say anything you want to say and not be killed. There are many places in the world you could not do that. In fact when I was in Cuba I was not allowed to preach but I could give a testimony. But was warned in advance that I was not to mention any thing about the government. There were at lease 3 plain clothes military men in every service. The people were allowed to meet, and worship but they could not talk politics at all. Castro decided it was good to let the people have that much freedom and they were a much happier people and was not so keen to overthrow him.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Percy, posted 04-03-2018 11:44 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 305 of 834 (840448)
09-29-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Minnemooseus
05-22-2018 7:49 PM


Re: 10 People Killed In Texas High School Shooting - May 18, 2018
Hi moose,

moose writes:

I think a big part of the problem is trickle down stupidity in the Trump era.

Do you really think this 17 year old got that stupid in the last 2 years?

Sounds a little far fetched too me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Minnemooseus, posted 05-22-2018 7:49 PM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
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Posts: 6259
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Member Rating: 1.3


Message 306 of 834 (840449)
09-29-2018 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
09-29-2018 6:59 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Yet you have not presented any evidence that my own gun might do someone harm.

jar have you ever pointed a gun at anything that you did not intend to kill?

In all my 72 years of handling guns I have never pointed one of my guns at anything I did not intend to hit (targets) or kill (animals, fowl and fish). Most of it was consumed at my table and the rest at someone else's table.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 09-29-2018 6:59 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 8:27 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
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Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 316 of 834 (840465)
09-30-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by jar
09-30-2018 8:27 AM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi jar,

jar writes:

I really have no respect for that position and argument. In hunting there is an intent to kill but only in hunting. In self defense my intention is and would never be to kill but only to stop a distinct and immediate threat.

I thought from your conversations that you had professional training in self defense. I don't know of a professional that teaches shoot to wound a person who is pointing a gun at you.

But my first encounters with guns was a single shot 22 rifle which I killed my first deer with when I was 7 years old. I still have that rifle.
I hunted with all kinds of guns from a 22 pistol to a 10 ga. shotgun. Including a 30 30, 30 06, and 308 rifle.

I was introduced to military weapons at 17 and was very proficient in their use. I was taught to shoot to kill. I was good enough on the rifle range that I was trained to use the 308 sniper rifle and I am glad I did not get deployed to Korea where I would have had to use the skill acquired with that weapon. It does not compare with what is used today but it was the best we had then.

But I will assure you if someone pulled a gun in my presence threating my life or someone else's and I had a shot I would make a head shot. The reason for the head shot is I don't know what kind of armor he/she might have on to protect them and if you shot a leg you would probably get shot.

But you keep any philosophy you desire as it may be your life or someone else's life that hangs in the balance of your decision that you have less than 1/2 second to make. In other words if you have to think about what to do you will be dead. It has to be reflex action.

Better yet I pray that neither of us ever have to make such a decision.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 8:27 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 4:07 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
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Posts: 6259
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Message 319 of 834 (840473)
09-30-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Porkncheese
09-30-2018 6:37 AM


Re: Crazy gun laws
Hi Porkncheese,

Welcome to EvC.

Pork writes:

I hope it changes but unfortunately the greed of politicians eclipses everything I think. Without a powerful opposition to the NRA there's little chance probs.

You don't understand much about how our country works.

Our founding fathers had come to the US from Europe where their friends and relatives had been killed by a State Church because they dared to believe different from the State Church. They were burned at the stake, boiled in oil and many other forms of death.

When they came to America they were still under the same government but did not have a State Church. They fought a war with England to gain their independence.

We do not have a democracy as you may have heard we do.

We have a Republic made up of 50 states,with each state having equal representation in the Senate. It makes no difference the population of the State. That has a Constitution and a Bill of rights. To change the second amendment would require 37.5 States to ratify a change to the Constitution. That means 13 states could block any change to the Constitution.

There are those that propose to repeal the 2nd amendment. That would take 38 states to ratify such a change,. So the NRA is the not the problem. Getting 38 stats to ratify doing away with the second amendment is the problem.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Porkncheese, posted 09-30-2018 6:37 AM Porkncheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Porkncheese, posted 10-12-2018 10:46 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 322 of 834 (840477)
09-30-2018 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by jar
09-30-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi jar,

jar writes:

Learn to read. Please point out where I said anything about shooting to wound.

In message 308 you said:

quote:
In self defense my intention is and would never be to kill but only to stop a distinct and immediate threat.

If a person is pointing a gun at you how do you intend to stop him/her without killing them? Are you going to talk him/her to death?

Remember you got less than a second to make up your mind. Then you have been shot. You may be dead or you could have survived the first shot but would you be able to return fire?

I choose to stay alive and will shoot anyone who starts to point a weapon at me. And I don't need your approval to do so.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 4:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 4:56 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 335 of 834 (840500)
10-01-2018 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by jar
09-30-2018 4:56 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi jar,

jar writes:

There is a difference between military training and civilian training. In the military it is reasonable to train to kill; as a civilian though the emphasis should be on avoiding anyone getting killed. The goal is to avoid the situation where a gun ever gets pointed at you.

You are quite right about much of the training being different.

I received the military long before I attended classes before I obtained my cc license. I wanted the classes to get the legal training of what to do and not do in the event I ever had to use my weapon. I did not have to get the training to get my cc license as my military training was sufficient.

But the object of the training was to stay alive. If it was necessary for someone to die make sure it was the other person not you.
But I haven't heard of any of these shooters announcing they were going to shoot people. They just walk in and start blasting away.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 09-30-2018 4:56 PM jar has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 336 of 834 (840501)
10-01-2018 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Percy
09-30-2018 6:20 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi Percy,

Percy writes:

There you go bragging again about how safe you are with guns. If you want to make 100% certain you don't harm an innocent person then leave your guns locked up at home. Once you carry your guns out of the house that 100% certainty drops.

You sure don't know anything about guns.

Question Percy. Do you ever go out in the public? Assuming you have hands they are a deadly weapon. If you have car or truck keys like I do they are as deadly as a knife or a gun.
Have you ever used your hands to harm an innocent person while you were out walking around in the world?

I been carrying a gun since I was 7 on a regular basis but not all the time. That means I have been carrying a gun for 72 years and never harmed any innocent person. Maybe that is because my guns are as much a part of me as my hands are. I can disassemble and reassemble most of my guns in less than 2 minutes blindfolded.

From the way jar talks he probably feels as I do that the gun is just an extension of his body. My gun will not fire unless I pull the trigger. I can drop it throw it down on the hammer and it would not fire. But if I pull and point it pulling the trigger it will fire.

Percy if you were to go to InSights Training Center in the pacific northwest and spend a week there you would have a different prospective of what a gun is and what a gun can be in the wrong hands.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Percy, posted 09-30-2018 6:20 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2018 3:14 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 340 by Percy, posted 10-01-2018 8:58 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 342 by ringo, posted 10-01-2018 12:01 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 343 of 834 (840541)
10-02-2018 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by ringo
10-01-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Today's carry package:
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

I know a Browning High Power when I see one. Mind you, I've never seen one in real life.

There is a lot of those in antique gun shops and for sale on the internet.
Most are very expensive.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by ringo, posted 10-01-2018 12:01 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

    
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