|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
yep.
as soon as you mentioned that part the (distance) scale fell from my eyes. I wonder if the instruments were able to detect any variation in the time of the light to travel from different parts of the ring -- that would allow one to correct for orientation of the ring. I also understand that there is a second phase of this interaction as well (from one of the sites). And I wonder if the heavy element signatures were also detectable in the ring path light. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Does anyone have a reference\information for what the distance to the supernova is\was by the standard red-shift model?
just for comparison? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Good stuff, and very consistent with the distance calculated here, but still not quite what I am looking for.
But, what I want is the pre-nova determined distance to the {progenitor\precurser} star {{Sk -69 202}} or {{Sanduleak -69202}} by the standard red-shift\speed of light model ... so that it can be compared with this independently calculated distance to show that the standard calculation is {viable\validated} and what the (%) error between the two systems is, and whether the possible range for this calculation is inside the possible range for the other (assuming it to be the less accurate method of the two). Every source I can find seems to have already corrected their distances to this calculated value. Or the numbers are identical and I am missing that information. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yep, that is what I keep finding. Thanks.
We'll need a real astronomer to help here..... Maybe I should talk to my brother ... we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It's okay, I've called in the reinforcements .
My understanding is that there are several methods used to measure distance, each having certain distance specific restrictions. The first is parallax, either by observations from opposite orientations of earth on its axis (nearest objects) or observations from opposite extremes of the earth orbit around the sun (gets us out into the galaxy neighborhood) Beyond that is extrapolated from the information base built on the parallax distance and {light\radiation} signatures for the spectrum of objects observed, plus other information that can be deduced. I thought red shift was used inside our galaxy, to among other things map out where in the 'disk' the objects were (say looking through the center area to what lies on the other side, and using doppler calcs to correct for rotation induced effects. Beyond out galaxy it appears (from reading all the articles on the LMC (Large Magellan Cloud) looking for how the distance to it is measured) is that the LMC is used to calibrate more distant extrapolations by correlating the {light\radiation} signatures of these objects with their distances and then being able to use that information on other more distant objects. To do that, we must have a good idea of where the LMC is and have it validated by a number of methods (this SN1987A bit being one of them). If this system is used to calibrate red shift then there must be red shift information on it, or at least I would think so. What I am looking for is a way to say "the distance to SN1987A by {speed of light calculations} is {165,000}* ly +/- 5 ly, the distance by this calculation is 168,000 ly +/- 3 ly and thus the speed of light has been consistent (within the margin of error) since the light left SN1987A" * - where {165,000} is just a number arbitrarily chosen for the example. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
RAZD writes:
Do you know of any standard distance for the pre SN1987A {progenitor\precurser} star {{Sk -69 202}} or {{Sanduleak -69202}} ?
Brother by e-mail writes:
Astronomers measure distances using several different sized yardsticks. You do begin with parallax - the diameter of the earth's orbit as the base of an extremely tall & thin triangle. This works for nearby stars. Then you start by correlating the Apparent Magnitude against what a similarly composed star might look like at the distance. If the spectral signature is a good match to some of the known nearby stars, then you can make a fairly good estimate of the mass. Once you have the mass, then you can estimate the Absolute Magnitude. Using Absolute/Apparent you get an estimate of the distance. This works for stars that fall well within a known type of spectral signature, so it isn't useful in general. Another way is to use eclipsing binaries, like Algol in Perseus. You can get the masses of the pair with the period and angular separation and get a distance that fits all the data. The eclipsing feature allows you to measure brightnesses individually for binaries that appear too close together for our telescopes. A binary that doesn't eclipse doesn't provide enough information to scale the distance well. So now you can measure distances to clusters in our galaxy and some of them have what are called Cepheid variables. Cepheid variables falls into 2 or 3 kinds, all characterized by a periodic brightening. Each kind has a mass-period relationship that is fairly consistent, if they are solidly within that kind of Cepheid. Cepheid variables were then detected in the Magellanic clouds and thus the distance to these clouds was well defined. Astronomers found Cepheids in other nearby galaxies and thus those distances could be determined. However, the further out the particular yardstick you are using, the greater the uncertainty of the measure. At the long end of the scale, astronomers are using Type Ia Supernovae in super-distant galaxies to fit the redshift data more accurately. These guys are the ones who helped cosmologists to think that the rate of the expansion of the universe has been increasing. See http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm for a lot of stuff on this whole shebang, so to speak. Looks like I need to specifically ask on the speed of light issue ... :sigh: This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-30-2005 16:52 AM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Conversely, though, there is a lot of data on Cepheid and RR Lyrae variables in the LMC that can be compared with data on those same two types of stars in galaxies that are far enough away to exhibit cosmological redshifts - say, in the Virgo Cluster. ... my 2nd link claims 7% spread in distances derived from SN1987A and the variable-star methods. That sounds pretty good to me.... So the best we can hope for is a link from SN1987A to Cepheid\variable stars and between those and redshift SoL derived distances. Tenuous? Or is this a two step, so it just doubles the innaccuracy? I have my source checking details...
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
yep
when in doubt pull out the god-did-it-it's-a-miracle card thanks for playing. note that this (1) is not science and (2) it is not strict biblical reading, it is pure personal fantasy to gloss over real problems encountered between science and belief with a nod to anything-goes-so-long-as-it-supports-mybelief supernatural behavior. functionally it is no different than the {universe was created yesterday to loook like this} scenario. with this kind of thinking any problem can be reduced to myth and there is no reality. better become a buddhist, they have a head start there (and fewer headaches). . The fact that you have to contradict your original model is irrelevant eh? {added by edit} and the fact that you had to extensively overhaul the concept to provide variations means that the original concept was destroyed by the evidence ... just to clarify that little issue. This message has been edited by RAZD, 01-23-2005 18:11 AM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
More from the inside source:
my bro e-mail writes: RAZD writes: did you read the article on the SN1987A calculation? uses trig based on the timed difference in observed (1987) light pulses from the star and from the ring to find the {real} diameter of the ring (as the distance light was known to travel in that interval in 1987), and then trig based on that and the apparent angle of the ring ... 168,000 LY ok - i went & read that. fun stuff.
RAZD writes: what I am looking for is a measurement to that star that involves the speed of light got anything on that? if you mean like the way they measure the distance to the moon by bouncing laser light off the little 3-panelled mirrors that the astronauts left on its surface, no. incidentally, one of my friends where i worked was joking about those people that think nobody went to moon - like Capricorn One? - he was trying to imagine how our calibration man was using the mirrors there to update his moon orbit & thus get more precise perturbations to the satelliteorbits.... if you bounce a signal off the moon or even venus like the Millstone Radar did back in the early 60's you get the distance via a bat-sonar analogy. but we cant bounce a signal off a star. nor do we have someone there to send us a signal with a Greenwich Time stamp in it. referring back to the paper's abstract:
We have determined the distance to the SN 1987A by comparing the angular size of its circumstellar ring measured from an HST (Hubble Space Telescope) image ... with its absolute size derived from an analysis of the light curves of narrow UV lines ... measured with IUE (International Ultraviolet Explorer). Our analysis confirms that the observed elliptical structure is indeed a circular ring at an inclination of 42.8 2.6. and provides a determination of its absolute diameter (1.27 0.07) x 1018 cm. Its ratio to the angular diameter of 1.66" 0.03" ... gives an accurate determination of the distance to SN 1987A ... = 51.2 3.1 kpc.... This value agrees very well with the determinations obtained from light-curve analysis of variable stars. the last sentence is referring to my Cepheids. but the key is the absolute size derived from the UV line light curves. *they agree*. i see that the impetus for all this is the creationist's claim that nothing over 100 LY has been measured accurately.LOL Doesn't look like a direct correlation to speed of light is in the works. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
but them we always pull out the it's-not-science trump card
(wait, you have a different deck ... )
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
you play the science game by the science rules and the faith game by the faith rules
you cannot play faith cards on the science game board, just as you can't play science cards on the faith board. Hoyle gets upset.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
"otherwise known" would include self evident statements and statements that are true by definition (2+2=4 is true by definition because 2 is defined as 1+1 and 3 is defined as 2+1 and 4 is defined as 3+1, so 2+2 = 2+(1+1) = (2+1)+1 = 3+1 = 4)
welcome to the fray (or the board) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I think plasma is closer then just energy for the initial expansion period, where energy and mass have not differentiated and thus are in the same kind of probability cloud as subatomic particles are today.
And "inflation" is a (subtle?) change in the visualization of the process, but it leaves me with a {laminar flow} impression compared to {turbulent flow} that "big bang" gives. Certainly the aftermath of the inflation was turbulent.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'll read your paper later (when I have more time)
the other abstract talks about the current speed of the ring which would be affected by the supernova interaction and thus not directly related to pre nova speeds which one would need to calculate the distance the question of the distance has been resolved to my satisfaction later. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
peaceharris writes: Harris: The calculations of Luo, McCray and Slavin (ApJ Vol 430, pg 264) predict that a "A bright arc will suddenly appear at the near side of the ring and grow into an entire ring about 11 months later." A tilted circular ring would look like an ellipse to us. The nearest and farthest side is along the minor axis of the ellipse. Could you show me a picture of the ring with a bright spot at the minor axis? 5.5 months later, half of the ellipse should be bright and the other half dark. But that is not at all what Luo, McCray and Slavin predicted. The difference is the nearness to US not the star, and the difference in time for light traveling from the star to the portion of the ring nearest us lighting up (we see it first) then spreading around to the side furthest from us where the light from the star goes away from us then hits the ring and sends light back to us, retracing the steps of the original light in the process, and taking that much longer to get here, hence the delay in the process. {{added by edit}}>mea culpa This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*29*2005 05:31 PM we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024