Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

Hi, Jar. I must say that I DO respect your view on salvation. as you know, I might only add that anyone who cheerfully does good works will receive Jesus. I don't know what all the fuss is about.Perhaps another way to look at the logic of this thread is to flip (invert) the logic. In other words, who can be lost? Or...who IS lost?
1) People who don't know any better are excluded from the "lost" list.
2) Those of other faiths who are cheerfully doing good works with a joyful heart may be technically lost in a legalistic sense, but I believe that Jesus gives them a chance. They would, of course, accept Him.3) This leaves the Pharisee mindset. The legalists who judge others.
It is THEY who appear to be in trouble of "losing" the gift of life.

We have talked of Matthew 25 before, and I agree with you that it reveals Gods heart. God revealed more of His overall truth to humanity throughout the years. As an example, Now..this does not mean that we should not as Christians or even as good people attempt to follow Matthew 25. What it does mean is that Jesus was addressing Jewish believers who needed to perfectly follow the law in order to even have a shot at salvation. Jesus basically broke it down to them by saying, in effect, "Its not all about your religion or your interpretation of scripture. It is about loving...faith in action. Does this mean that Paul was wrong? No...because Paul was talking to unbeliving gentiles who knew nothing of the law. Paul was telling them that they did not need to work at religion but that they needed to have faith. For the Jews, perfect love validated their faith. For the Gentiles, perfect faith (In Christ) validated their love. Jesus was telling the Jews that even non-Jews would be sheep if they practiced love. This does not mean that these sheep did not know their shepherd, however. So it all ties together.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-17-2005 16:09 AM

I have reread the past 25 or so posts to gather a synopsis of what it is that we are debating.
The Topic starter, again, is Who can be saved? A Christian perspective. Well, I can't fault your logic! Jesus also says that everything hangs on the two commandments of Loving God..(Actions, remember. not words.) Loving our neighbor..(You correctly see that action is required here, also.) I agree with everything that you say...your heart is right and your logic is Texas simple. The Atheist would, like Abraham, have their Faith that they were doing what is right and true be counted as Righteousness. It is hard to deny Jesus in your heart if you are helping others. Why? Because you are living as Christ lived. Technically, the scriptures are right just as in technically Jesus should not have healed on the sabbath. If , however, your sheep gets washed in the ditch by a Tsunami, what good "atheist" farmer would not pull them out?

Hi, Brian! You ask: Pretend that you were a Theist answering this question.
I'll be the atheist.
ME: How can I love something that does not exist?
YOU: Well, How do you express love? What is your ideal world governed by?
ME: Well, it is quite obvious that the world is far from perfect, and it appears that the fundamentalist religious mindset coupled with a love for money and power is causing most of the trouble.
YOU: What should we love besides money and power?
.............well?

If you were a native who worshiped a volcano and had never heard of the Bible yet wanted to do what was noble and right for his village and his kids...we would call him an atheist rather than an idolator. We are thus suggesting that you can in fact love a God you have never known...be ye native or be ye theology professor! Religiously and legalistically, people would say no way! I see what you mean, however. So...yes, definitely.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-19-2005 12:40 AM

This was a good topic that we did! I am enjoying reading some of the old posts from old members and ex members. Does anyone have any current commentary on it?

How can you believe in something you dont see, hear, taste, touch, or smell?Its easy to believe in God once you have an initial encounter, perceived, imaginary, or otherwise. The encounter preceded the decision to believe, however.

I also read where you said that you believe that Jesus died for everyone...not simply those who believed in Him. So what if I am stubborn? What if I cling to the notion that I deserve more than others? What if I simply refuse to humble myself as much as I should? And by the way, why should I do anything? Im praying every day, but usually for myself and not others. I have tried so hard to get Gods attention, and am angry that I am being ignored. What will become of me?

The reason I asked about me is because I could be lumped in with those stubborn, ignorant, and exclusivist Christians that you mention who are less likely to be in Heaven than not. We are indeed a stubborn lot. We have a fish on our business cards, and try to deal fair and square with others, though we as a group tend to confuse our christianity with our patriotism. Many of us own guns, and would defend this nation and ourselves from any sort of revolution that sought to bring down our free country. We are as tough and stubborn as the Slovenians, except we are not as used to economic hardships as their parents were.We trust the God whom we worship, and fully expect Him to forgive and bless us, even though logic shows that God is far bigger than our simple lifetime and our claims to social and economic advantage that we have grown to expect.Like the Slovenians, we would lead a revolution to overthrow the government if we thought that it had abandoned our principles and was catering to a global wealth class. We by and large dutifully pay off our debts as we can, but will never accept a bill that enslaves us to pay off any sort of national debt that demands $100,000 apiece from our hides.We would blame such a debt on the wealthy who stole it from us, and would fight to bring them down...although they have lawyers and jets and electronic money that could disappear from our banks in a click.The younger and more enlightened of us accept gays and immigrants from other countries, as long as they don't try and marry our sons (gays) or steal our jobs. (immigrants)We are unafraid of hard work, but we want to see America great again, and many of us don't understand why times have changed for good. As ground shifts under U.S. middle class, neither left nor right has it correctThe great American wealth divideOur faith is strong, however, and deep down we know that God is not the god of money. None of us want to have anything to do with Hell, though our morality tends to be aimed at preservation of our class and not of the Islamic, Hindu, or Atheist babies the world over whom, if they turn out wealthier than us, will be used by Satan to get us to fall on our own sword...IF...we don't listen to our inner conscience (Holy Spirit?) before grabbing the gun off of the rack.

Topic Synopsis Reflecting on my last post to you, I foresee a time when the US fundamentalist Christian will feel as if their god abandoned them. Reality suggests that there is a socioeconomic revolution happening globally that simply won't necessarily favor Americans, no matter who or what they believe in. In times when God seems imaginary and distant, people often take up a revolution in His name, whether or not He approves of it. Sadly, human nature is all about justifying a war in the name of God, though in reality it is for the benefit of the believers/zealots. And this is where we might fail. We simply want to help ourselves (and our kids) before we help others. (Why should foreigners be better off economically than we are? Shouldnt we take care of our own first?) This is the lesson that everyone will have to face...be they Christians, Muslims, Atheists or Hindus. Ironically, however, the "marketers" have already sold many fundamentalists on the idea that a one world government may soon form, one that is in favor of no one class. Its hard to take that if you were born in a previously favored class. Its also easy to believe that its Satan who is taking away your money/resources/freedoms. In the final analysis, how well will the Buddhists behave as opposed to the Christians? If global resources dwindle, who will be fighting for what, and who will simply "turn the other cheek"(wallet)?Basically, I believe that many will behave badly and few will try and do their best. I dont know if I honestly could humble myself enough to do my best. In Spirit, yes. In name, maybe not.As an American Christian, it was always easier to love and pity a world less fortunate than I. It would truly be hard to love a world that had grown wealthier than I..or to justify their enlightened status. I can now see how other cultures have long thought of the "blessed" American Christians. This is what the fundamentalist Christian middle/lower middle class does not understand. Being American never made them Gods chosen. America is not a chosen nation. The pain of seeing a whole world treated the exact same is abrasive to some, who feel that their lifestyles were stolen from them by the evil socialist conspiracy...in league with Satan. When it gets right down to it,k the only similarity to obtaining eternal life, for anyone, is in the act of dying for a battle to ensure that your offspring have it better than you did. So if you factor in a possible economic crises globally, food shortages, overpopulation, and every culture and nation trying to secure a decent future for their kids...what you will have is quite likely a war.Consensus is unlikely, since many of the ones who used to be ahead feel cheated.On the one hand, IF Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, everyone starts out equal...spiritually. What if, in a Global War, they behave quite badly? What if, for example, the US becomes a third class nation and many of the once proud Americans are broke? What if the Indian Atheists and Hindus seek and find a path of economic prosperity for their offspring? Above all, what about those damnable wealthy people? Globally, I mean? How do you expect anyone to love someone better off who wont share?I better stop...I feel frustrated and unable to continue this discussion rationally...I find myself wanting a certain answer and a certain outcome...and yet know deep down that things wont work out MY way. So...Crashfrog? Never mind if God exists or not. My question to you is this: How would you behave in a global war of competition for resources and future benefit of offspring? Would you be on any one side?

If they take our jobs at less expense, they will only cause a dissatisfied majority that is willing to even use WMD's if need be. My point is, there wont be any one power strong enough to stop a frustrated and pissed off US middle class. Honorable or not, there may be some deadly wars. I don't see how this is relevant. Either it gets paid, or you and i wont see our full pensions. Honor too has its price, and many wont accept too harsh of a sentence.

Salvation is a free gift, right> Nobody earns it.I try to do my best, though at times I fall far short...even willfully. I simply don't want to suffer and dont want to be out competed.I believe that God will save me...not for what I do versus what I could have done. Not for being a spoiled entitled brat. Not for being born in America. Because He loves me.The thing that puzzles me about your beliefs is that you seem to think that many of we christians will end up in Hell. Something about doing or not doing for the least of these.you do believe that it will be a remedial class, however, so I suppose I'm satisfied with your belief, and wont argue too much.Atheists wont be any happier when the once proud financial system falls. Nor will Hindus. Nor will you.

And so when I often find that I miss the mark at doing my very best, I know that Jesus understands my humanity and I ask for forgiveness for my selfishness and fear to hand over my first(never-mind
second) cloak.

It is my belief that Jesus addressed Jews different from how Gentiles would be addressed. One group was expected to try and do the very best works they could...the other was expected to trust God and not get hung up on ritualistic effort.

This is all a matter of belief. I maintain that God saves based on His grace and nothing more. This whole idea of following some code of honor is a doctrine from hell. Not to say we shouldn't try and do our best...but we fall short.All we can do is try again the next day and repent if we feel convicted.