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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3546 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 376 of 403 (603175)
02-03-2011 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Theodoric
02-02-2011 8:51 PM


Ectopic Issue
quote:
He presented a bizarre alternative to aborting an ectopic pregnancy. It was presented as if it was a very viable alternative to aborting ectopic pregnmacies. Then he found an article that showed one extremely rare and bizarre ectopic pregnancy that did resolve the way he suggests. If you read the article the doctors did not realize it was ectopic until very far along in the pregnancy.
And yet I understood him. You even quoted his statement from Message 305. (That's why it's nice to include a link so people can read the post for themselves.)
Slevesque writes:
An ectopic pregancy will kill the mother if nothing is done. However, in some cases c-section plus incubation can save the foetus. In those cases, you should save it instead of just killing it with an abortion procedure.
He said, "...in some cases...". Even though it is rare, there are cases. His statements aren't advocating anything more than if it is possible, then save both the mother and the child.
Cases with live birth:
On 19 April 2008 an English woman, Jayne Jones (age 37) who had an ectopic pregnancy attached to the omentum, the fatty covering of her large bowel, gave birth. The baby was delivered by a laparotomy at 28 weeks gestation. The surgery, the first of its kind to be performed in the UK, was successful, and both mother and baby survived.[26]
On May 29, 2008 an Australian woman, Meera Thangarajah (age 34), who had an ectopic pregnancy in the ovary, gave birth to a healthy full term 6 pound 3 ounce (2.8 kg) baby girl, Durga, via Caesarean section. She had no problems or complications during the 38-week pregnancy.[27][28]
I don't see that he's advocating that women today be forced to carry any or all ectopic pregnancies in hopes that they will reach the 25 week point.
Odds are these rare cases are because the ectopic pregnancy wasn't discovered earlier. If the English woman's problem was discovered very early, her doctors would probably have advised aborting the fetus. Further in the article we see that the doctors didn't catch the problem in earlier scans. Miracle Baby.
In another article on the Miracle Baby, we learn that even the ground-breaking surgery put the mother at risk.
quote:
Are you sure he knows this? If this is true why didn't he say abdominal ectopic pregnancies in his first mention of ectopic pregnancies. I think probably because he was unaware of it until he researched it after he tried to peddle the pro-life crap he was using.
It doesn't matter. His point is the same when both the mother and child are in danger.
His first mention of ectopic pregnancies was Message 305 which I quoted above.
In Message 302, he responded to jar:
Slevesque writes:
jar writes:
Okay, so an abortion to protect the life and health of the mother is acceptable.
Yes. Of course, if there should be some way to save the foetus and the mother, this should be done.
The English woman was an example where both were saved.
quote:
That is pro-lifer utopia talk. Things are not this simple and cut and dry in pregnancies, or for that matter anything in life.
Slevesque writes:
Of course, we are talking about the society of the future, the one we would like to build. And I would have a free-health care system. Monetary reasons should never be the reason a human life isn't saved. Message 315
I agree that medical issues aren't cut and dried, but for the sake of discussion we tend to generalize. Generally speaking, Slevesque (as I understand it) feels that if the mother's life is in danger (for whatever reason) and there are no means available or the child cannot be sustained outside the woman's body; it is acceptable to abort the fetus.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3546 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 377 of 403 (603176)
02-03-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by slevesque
02-03-2011 12:40 AM


Sex Education
quote:
Because I learnt it in 6th grade. Which is too early in my opinion. In my final 6th grade year, after they taught sex.ed. (which was around march), many girls in my class were losing their virginity with high school guys. What age are you in 6th grade, like 11-12 I think?
I'm all for sex.ed. at around 15-16 personnally.
I guess growing up on a farm has its advantages. Around 5th and 6th grade, I was helping castrate little piggies and clamping calves.
I also saw the problems with breeding cows too young. Pulling a dead calf out of a young cow before she dies, leaves an impression.
I told my daughter sex was not a toy and not to have sex until she was supporting herself in her own home. She didn't and no, she wasn't a very compliant child. She just had no problem with my reasoning. It made sense to her.

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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 378 of 403 (603181)
02-03-2011 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by slevesque
02-03-2011 12:36 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
slevesque writes:
you teach gun safety when you judge he is ready to use a gun.
Certainly, you don't let your children go hunting when you don't think he is ready
That is 100% wrong.
You teach gun safety BEFORE you judge they are ready to use a gun. In fact, you teach gun safety as early as you possibly can, long before children are allowed to even touch a gun.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 379 of 403 (603183)
02-03-2011 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by slevesque
02-03-2011 2:05 AM


More small steps
Besides, it's a bit like a vicious circle. Who tells the 5th graders how it works ? The 6th graders. And if we start teaching it to the 5th graders, they'll start telling it to 4th graders.
What is wrong with sex?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 380 of 403 (603188)
02-03-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by slevesque
02-03-2011 12:36 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
you teach gun safety when you judge he is ready to use a gun.
Wrong, you teach gun safety before they are ready to use a gun.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 381 of 403 (603190)
02-03-2011 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by slevesque
02-03-2011 12:40 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
In my final 6th grade year, after they taught sex.ed. (which was around march), many girls in my class were losing their virginity with high school guys.
Again, anecdotes with no evidence. How do you know this happened? Did the girls put up a tote board? Many girls? Come on. Even if it is true do you have any evidence of a causal relationship between the two things. This is just more pro-life propaganda with no evidence. Personal anecdote isn't worth shit.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9283
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 382 of 403 (603191)
02-03-2011 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by slevesque
02-03-2011 3:50 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
What I'm really thinking is that there may be a real causal link between teaching a child how to do something, and after that him linking it with therefore he is ready to do it, either consciously or sub-consciously.
But mysteriously you can show no causal relationship. Maybe this is one of those things you should research before you present an unfounded assertion.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by slevesque, posted 02-03-2011 3:50 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 383 of 403 (603211)
02-03-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by slevesque
02-02-2011 10:40 PM


Safety is proactive
slevesque writes:
As a society, we teach someone something when we judge that he is ready to do the thing.
The problem is that she's going to do it when she thinks she's ready, not when you think she's ready. She needs to be prepared to do it safely before she thinks she's ready. Children should be taught about safe sex when they still think it's icky.

"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4317 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 384 of 403 (603221)
02-03-2011 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by onifre
01-25-2011 5:11 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
geez i go on vacation for a week, and this thread blew up.
onifre writes:
So would you call that method of birth control a homicidal method?
sure, why not.
onifre writes:
It is all life, at different stages. They're all the same cells at one particular stage of the process or another. If the destruction of one set of sells is ok, why isn't the other set of cells ok to destroy?
because one set is human and one set is not.
onifre writes:
From a more religious perspective, if it's a soul you're destroying, wouldn't the sperm and the egg both be carrying half the soul? Wouldn't destroying sperm and eggs be the same a destroying half a human soul every single time?
i don't know, you know catholicism as well as i do. sex is for procreation or its wrong. that is the rule. BTW I am a huge sinner, according to this rule. I am not aborting any human life though.
onifre writes:
How many half-human souls have been lost during the course of the average male's life? Or female's life?
a lot, more for males i would guess, but all those halves added up cannot make 1 human; and therefore not 1 soul either.
I'm just trying to find some consistency here.
i hear you, i dont have the answer for everything.
You just blew my fucking mind!
LOL

This message is a reply to:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4729 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 385 of 403 (603225)
02-03-2011 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by Theodoric
02-03-2011 10:08 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
But mysteriously you can show no causal relationship. Maybe this is one of those things you should research before you present an unfounded assertion.
Sorry, but I don't study psychology, I study Math and Physics. You ask me my opinion about sex.ed. and I willingly answer what I think, but I can only can only resort to my own personal experience of it, and what I've come to think of it.
And as I had said, the idea I proposed is simply a hypothesis. It was an attempt to explain how I experienced the impact sex.ed. had (which, btw isn't unique to me. From the discussions I had with other friends from other schools when we were older, this seemed to be a generalized phenomenon. thos girls who lost their virginity in the 6th grade pretty much all did it after sex.ed.). And in my opinion it is very logical: children reasonings seems to be very straightforward at time, and for a child, getting taught how to do something may very well appear like a green light that they are now at age to do it.
I am well within my right to propose such a hypothesis, since, after all, a hypothesis is always speculation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 386 of 403 (603228)
02-03-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by slevesque
02-03-2011 1:01 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
slevesque writes:
But mysteriously you can show no causal relationship. Maybe this is one of those things you should research before you present an unfounded assertion.
Sorry, but I don't study psychology, I study Math and Physics. You ask me my opinion about sex.ed. and I willingly answer what I think, but I can only can only resort to my own personal experience of it, and what I've come to think of it.
And as I had said, the idea I proposed is simply a hypothesis. It was an attempt to explain how I experienced the impact sex.ed. had (which, btw isn't unique to me. From the discussions I had with other friends from other schools when we were older, this seemed to be a generalized phenomenon. thos girls who lost their virginity in the 6th grade pretty much all did it after sex.ed.). And in my opinion it is very logical: children reasonings seems to be very straightforward at time, and for a child, getting taught how to do something may very well appear like a green light that they are now at age to do it.
I am well within my right to propose such a hypothesis, since, after all, a hypothesis is always speculation.
I can also point out that there were quite a few Middle School girls that got pregnant back when I was in school; and the most sexually precocious girls I ever met were also also about 13-15. They scared the hell outta me.
That was long before SexEd had been invented so I cannot see that your position has much support other than confirmation bias.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4317 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 387 of 403 (603229)
02-03-2011 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by slevesque
02-03-2011 2:56 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
slevesque writes:
Yes I know that's the point. But why does this logic strictly apply to sex ? Why does in every other aspect of life, we view it as better to teach them something when they are ready ?
I always thought parents did the teaching when they were ready, not when the children were ready. My parents were obviously uncomfortable with the birds and the bees talk, and I learned about it in 6th grade.
Knowledge is the key, and people start soaking it in from birth onwards, we are always ready to learn knew information. IMO teaching younger kinds about reproduction is the better method. I learn thigns on this site (mostly about how crazy liberals and the british are, but sometimes its more substanitive).
We're not teaching our kids to drive at 13 years old, even if some do steal their parent's car at that age. Why don't we teach them, ''just in case they steal the car'' ?
i do not follow your reasoning, all this "just in case talk". I started driving when I was 14, and my dad was in the passenger seat instructing me. at 1st it was all back roads in rural Illinois (the roads are very straight and go on for miles). after a few times they let me drive to church on Sundays, driving is really not that hard, I think some 13 years could learn. especially if you can already ride a dirtbike or ATV.
Certainly, you don't teach you son to fire a gun at 10 years old, just in case he stumbles upon it. You teach him at whatever age you feel he is ready, and only at that age do you also let him go hunting with his friends, after you have showed him how to shoot.
certainly? why not? I fired my first gun in Cub Scouts; I was around 10 years old. it was a ruger 10-22. like other topics knowledge is not the problem here. I fired my 1st automatic (an automatic czech AK-47) at age 11 @ with my uncle in Missouri, my 9 year brother was there and he fired it too. It was AWESOME! I didn't start hunting till I was 32 years old (september 2010); learned about guns/saftey and the 2nd amendment much earlier. My little brother (now 29.75 years old) still doesn't hunt; guns are not about hunting from our perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by slevesque, posted 02-03-2011 2:56 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4729 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 388 of 403 (603230)
02-03-2011 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by ringo
02-03-2011 11:42 AM


Re: Safety is proactive
The problem is that she's going to do it when she thinks she's ready, not when you think she's ready. She needs to be prepared to do it safely before she thinks she's ready. Children should be taught about safe sex when they still think it's icky.
I'm for teaching about sex earlier. I am all for a parent talking to his children about sex, how it is not something you fool around with, at what point is someone ready to do it, etc. But the mechanics of it should not be taught as early as it is.
To continue the parallel with driving a car, my parents talked to me about driving before I was taught how to drive. Told me the that it was something to be taken very seriously, because if not you could hurt other people and yourself. etc.
Deciding to teach ''look, this is how it's done'' at 15-16 doesn't mean it cannot be talked about before.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 389 of 403 (603231)
02-03-2011 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by slevesque
02-03-2011 2:56 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Yes I know that's the point. But why does this logic strictly apply to sex ?
Parents can be a bit biased when it comes to their kids and sex. Most parents think their child is a good kid and won't engage in sexual activity until the parents think they are ready. Well, this isn't always the case. Last I heard, a parent's disapproval does not provide a physical barrier to sexual activity, and teens have this tendency to ignore their parents for some reason.
If we are to be prudent then we should come down on the side of teaching sex ed a bit too early than too late.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by slevesque, posted 02-03-2011 2:56 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4729 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 390 of 403 (603232)
02-03-2011 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Artemis Entreri
02-03-2011 1:08 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
i do not follow your reasoning, all this "just in case talk". I started driving when I was 14, and my dad was in the passenger seat instructing me. at 1st it was all back roads in rural Illinois (the roads are very straight and go on for miles). after a few times they let me drive to church on Sundays, driving is really not that hard, I think some 13 years could learn. especially if you can already ride a dirtbike or ATV.
Then certainly he judged you were ready to drive at that age. What I mean is, in all those other cases, he didn't just show you were the gas pedal was, where the brake was, etc. but then didn't have you have a go at it. Same with the gun, he didn't just say ''here's the trigger, here's the safety, ...'' but then hid the gun.
He actually let you fire, he actually let you drive. That's what I mean when saying that he judged you were ready to do those things.
He didn't teach you these things, just in case you would steal his car, or his gun.
That's why I'm saying, if people judge 12 years old is old enough for them to actually have intercourse, then I can understand wanting sex.ed to be done at that age. But if someone agrees with me that 12 years old is too young, then how can you justify sex.ed at that age, when it is contrary to what we do in all other aspects of life ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Artemis Entreri, posted 02-03-2011 1:08 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

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