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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
Phat
Member
Posts: 15935
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 16 of 909 (828276)
02-15-2018 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by frako
02-15-2018 1:36 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
So making the gun free zone would do nothing but legally hamper police from responding. How would such a zone be enforced?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by frako, posted 02-15-2018 1:36 PM frako has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 909 (828277)
02-15-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:39 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
duplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 18 of 909 (828279)
02-15-2018 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:39 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Metal detectors at the entrence, and x ray for their bags, it works for our courts why not for your schools. Dunno about your schools, but our schools usually have only one open entrance, other doors are only exits unless you have the key. But we dont have a gun problem so there is no need for all those metal detectors and stuff.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 909 (828283)
02-15-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:39 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
So making the gun free zone would do nothing but legally hamper police from responding. How would such a zone be enforced?

That's right, Phat. Gun free zones target police, so that they cannot bring guns into the zone. Gun free zones, if we let you tell it, are law-free zones which the police cannot enter.

How would such a zone be enforced?

By arresting gun toters when they carry into those areas? By self-enforcement by folks who respect the law? Perhaps folks like retired policeman Curtis Reeves would not have shot a man and his wife for throwing popcorn on him if he did not have a gun.

Of course, no solution is perfect, but I cannot imagine that having more folks in the movie theatre with guns would have been all that helpful in the Reeves case.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 20 of 909 (828284)
02-15-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
02-15-2018 2:13 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
By arresting gun toters when they carry into those areas? By self-enforcement by folks who respect the law? Perhaps folks like retired policeman Curtis Reeves would not have shot a man and his wife for throwing popcorn on him if he did not have a gun.

Of course, no solution is perfect, but I cannot imagine that having more folks in the movie theatre with guns would have been all that helpful in the Reeves case.

Throwing more guns at this problem is not the solution. One of the things I stated before is that the mindset here in America seems to be the ultimate culprit. I grew in Canada. There are LOTS of guns. I had two pellet guns growing up. My neighbor was a hunter and took me duck hunting several times. Heck, even AR-15s are actually legally obtainable in Canada.

The BIG difference I see between Canada and the USA is not necessarily the laws, but the mindset. There isn't a 'shoot first ask questions later' philosophy in Canada. There isn't this bizarre fixation on guns that I see here in the States. It honestly reminds me of how Samurai's used to revere their swords like they have mystical power.

I don't know how easy it is to change this mindset. But that is at the core of why it is so difficult to get any traction on changes.


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Diomedes
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 973
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 21 of 909 (828288)
02-15-2018 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Diomedes
02-15-2018 2:56 PM


Trump Irony
So just read that El Presidente is now indicating that the safety of our schools and mental health are top priorities for him.

That's funny because if I recall, Trump reversed an Obama level decision that mandated background checks for people with mental illness:

https://www.nbcnews.com/...-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

Isn't that interesting.


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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 909 (828292)
02-15-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Diomedes
02-15-2018 2:56 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Throwing more guns at this problem is not the solution. One of the things I stated before is that the mindset here in America seems to be the ultimate culprit.

I agree. Here is an example of that mindset.

http://abcnews.go.com/...ting-plunges-city-mourning-53101623

quote:
An orphaned 19-year-old who participated in paramilitary drills with a white nationalist group was charged with murder Thursday in the deaths of 17 people who were fatally shot at a huge Florida high school in the nation's deadliest school attack in five years.

Nikolas Cruz legally purchased the AR-15 rifle used in the assault at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press.

As the criminal case against the suspect took shape, the leader of a white nationalist militia called the Republic of Florida said Cruz was a member of his group and participated in exercises in Tallahassee.

Jordan Jereb told The Associated Press that he had only a brief interaction a few years ago with Cruz, who came across as "a normal Florida white guy."

The group wants Florida to become its own white ethno-state. Jereb said his organization holds "spontaneous random demonstrations" and tries not to participate in the modern world.


That's right. A group that wants Florida as "its own white ethno-state" thinks that the shooter is "a normal Florida white guy".

I don't know how easy it is to change this mindset. But that is at the core of why it is so difficult to get any traction on changes.

Something close to impossible.

Link added by edit.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 23 of 909 (828293)
02-15-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by frako
02-15-2018 1:36 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
Make schools gun free zones its the better option.

There is disagreement on the statistics, of course, there always is, but one major argument against gun-free zones claims that the majority of places targeted for this kind of attack have been gun-free zones, because they make the law-abiders into sitting ducks for those who don't bother about such rules.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by frako, posted 02-15-2018 1:36 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 24 of 909 (828311)
02-15-2018 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
02-15-2018 4:00 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
claims that the majority of places targeted for this kind of attack have been gun-free zones

Is this claim even true? There really aren't lots of gun-free zones around. Schools are targetted, yes, but the vast majority of the perps in those incidents have been other school children. I suspect that the particular targets in those cases are the student's classmates. Mass shootings in non-school places almost invariably seem to occur in places with lax gun laws.

Absent some evidence to the contrary, I'd have to call BS on this claim. At best the evidence would support having some law enforcement presence in a school. Heck, just a metal detector would be a substantial deterrent.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 02-15-2018 4:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 02-15-2018 6:59 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 909 (828312)
02-15-2018 6:12 PM


Trump is better than Obama in this regard...
I think most lefties would agree with this. Obama as president was a great marketing tool for selling guns. I remember that during Obama's presidency, folks were actually stockpiling guns in hidden weapons caches out of fear fo the day that the feds came around to take their weapons. There were stories about folks buying guns, putting them in some kind of heavy oil and then burying them in pits.

Now that Trump is president, gun sales are way down. Apparently, folks feel that that humongous pile of weapons they bought over the last eight years is enough for now.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...y-amid-declining-gun-sales

quote:
President Trump’s upset over Clinton seems to have helped reverse all that. Fears of a crackdown have tapered off under a president who called himself a “true friend” of the National Rifle Association. And so have gun sales.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...s-obama-20180214-story.html

quote:
One day last fall, I went to shoot at a different gun range. And there on the counter was a flier with a scary photo of Hillary Clinton, informing patrons that if elected, she would trample on their Second Amendment rights. Shortly after the election, I got a letter from the NRA declaring grimly, “Our worst nightmare is staring us right in the face.” Obviously the mailing was done on the assumption that Clinton would win and that hysteria was still a sound operating plan.

It worked for the NRA and its allies for a long time, so they did their best to sustain it. Under Obama, gun production and sales doubled, and gun makers saw their stock prices soar. There were times when it was almost impossible to find certain types of ammunition because so many people were stocking up for Armageddon.

But those days are past. When gunmaker Remington said Tuesday it will file for bankruptcy, it confirmed that you can only cry wolf so many times before people realize that’s a golden retriever. Other makers of guns and ammunition have had to lay off workers.


Perhaps we should admit that electing Republicans as president actually makes peoples homes a bit safer and free from unnecessary weapons.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 909 (828313)
02-15-2018 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
02-15-2018 5:33 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
I remember when it was a big topic about the theater shooting, since the theater was in a gun-free zone.

The Blaze is what I found earlier. Now it's not turning up, different search term perhaps, but here's a Google page you can skim to get the range of views.

It's certainly got to be true, whether or not gun free zones are particularly targeted, that the victims would be sitting ducks and might have a chance if there was a concealed carry in the audience..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2018 5:33 PM NoNukes has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 909 (828321)
02-15-2018 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
02-15-2018 6:59 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
It's certainly got to be true, whether or not gun free zones are particularly targeted, that the victims would be sitting ducks and might have a chance if there was a concealed carry in the audience.

A bit earlier I described a different theatre story involving a retired police officer in a theatre that was not gun free zone. Curtis Reeves shot a man for throwing popcorn on him. I wonder if more guns would have helped there.

It is simply not true that more guns will help.

I remember when it was a big topic about the theater shooting, since the theater was in a gun-free zone.

I don't doubt that people make the claim and even write articles about that. But I don't believe the claim is true. I am aware that people think it is true.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 28 of 909 (828339)
02-16-2018 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
02-15-2018 4:00 PM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
I know, but i bet my left ball its still significantly safer then if everyone had a gun and someone started shooting.

Thing is if you want everyone to be able to have guns you cant be safe from guns.

If america started reading the well regulated part it might offer some relief but you have so many guns its doubtful you could keep them from the wrong hands anymore. If i remember right there are more guns in america then there are people.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 678 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 909 (828341)
02-16-2018 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by frako
02-16-2018 5:10 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
know, but i bet my left ball its still significantly safer then if everyone had a gun and someone started shooting.

Thing is if you want everyone to be able to have guns you cant be safe from guns.

If america started reading the well regulated part it might offer some relief but you have so many guns its doubtful you could keep them from the wrong hands anymore. If i remember right there are more guns in america then there are people.

That may be true about more guns than people but the vast majority of the people do not have guns which means some people have an arsenal. Maybe not the *right* people. Or maybe most are, there's no way to know.

Anyway, I don't want *everyone* to have guns, and I certainly believe that there should be reasonable restrictions, though I admit I'm never quite sure what that means when the conversation gets heated. I'm just arguing that it shouldn't take many responsible gun owners scattered through the population to be a better safeguard than total prohibition of guns, anywhere but certainly in any particular locale, which seems to me to be an invitation to the crazy ones. I think your notion that a school administrator couldn't be trusted with a gun is totally wrongheaded though. I don't want someone forced into the position of possessing a gun who wouldn't be comfortable in that role, but surely there are responsible mature people who could be useful in that role. Remember Israel where even schoolteachers may be carrying rifles slung over their shoulders. Their political situation makes that safer than gun-free zones for sure, and by now with all these crazies shooting up American schools it ought to be recognized that something similar is the case here too.

There are no guarantees in any case, the gun possessing good guys may not be in the right place at the right time or any other glitch may interfere with the protection sought, but when it comes to a lone shooter with an automatic weapon against a whole population of unarmed people, and a police force that can't get there in time, a few armed good guys could prevent what happened in Florida and all the other slaughters. A FEW, I say, even one or two, I'm not arguing that we all be armed. It's a RIGHT, not a mandate.

Your country is probably a lot more culturally cohesive than sprawling America with our "melting pot" culture that these days is more like a cauldron of warring gangs. Our drastically polarized political situation is just one symptom. European nations until recently could be described as more culturally unified in general. Even Canada I think. America not only has the Second Amendment which we do revere, but a current cultural situation that it seems to me would implode completely if we surrendered that amendment. We revere it partly because it was formulated out of European experience of the need of the ordinary citizen to defend against tyrannical kings. The current sense of safety in unarmed European nations today could be very possibly just a temporary reprieve from such tyrannical leaders that could change under unforeseen circumstances, perhaps even the circumstance of a disarmed America. "Progressives" and liberals always think the human race is *evolving* in the direction of a peaceful sane planet, not sensing the undercurrent of the fallen nature that inevitably brings the Hitlers and the Pol Pots and the Kim Il whatshisnames to the top when opportunity strikes.

As I recall, some of the American founders interpreted the "well regulated" part of the amendment to mean that all citizens constitute the militia. I believe some of them were quoted at the beginning of one of the gun control threads but I'd have to search for it. It's not as cut and dried as you think.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 30 of 909 (828347)
02-16-2018 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
02-16-2018 6:04 AM


Re: 17 Dead at Florida High School
When the founding fathers wrote that amendment, guns took a minute to reload. As for the people defending themselves with guns against tirans, they would be bringing guns to a drone fight. Pointless.

As for the dictators you menitoned, hitler actually laxed gun laws for the people unless they where jewish.

I get it americans love guns, because propaganda tells you you should, i just dont get the christian gun nuts, your a christian right though shall not kill. The Main purpose of a gun is to kill, you can scream selfe defense all you want its still killing.

There are defensive weapons out there tough, from tazors, to sprays, Clothing that tazes your assailant if he touches you....., but those are of no intrest to american gun lovers who just want to defend themselves.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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