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Author | Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: There are universally-accepted criteria for the playing of football and tennis. There are not hundreds and hundreds of different sets of rules for playing football or tennis which are followed by various groups all claiming to be the "authentic" and "true" players of football and tennis. No, the rules of football and tennis are pretty much agreed upon by everybody who plays the games in any professional or serious way. You cannot say that this is true of Christianity. Each group thinks the others have it wrong about what the "teachings of Jesus" were and how to follow them. You have a particular way of thinking about it, which disagrees with quite a few sects of Christianity. Why should I consider you right and all of the others wrong?
quote: The above doesn't answer any of my points at all. The Christian pro life killers of abortion doctors would say that yes, they are indeed Christians, saving thousands and thousands of babies by killing the baby killers and bombing clinics. This is a crusade, they say, in which the ends justifies the means.
[qs]Who are you to say otherwise?[qs]
quote: Mike, you have judged that people who murder cannot be true Christians.
Mike, are you seriously telling me that the fact that the BIBLE, the FOUNDATIONAL HOLY TEXT OF CHRISTIANITY, and if it is taken as literally true in every word or as allegory, is NOT a hugely major part of what Christians have enormous disagreements about? quote: Answer the question. Do Christians disagree over interpreting the Bible literally or as allegory? Yes or No?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
If God is doing something to end suffering, he is certainly not doing all that is possible for an omnicient, all powerful god. quote: Do humans know the difference beween good and evil? Is God held to at least the same moral standard as humans are? Is God both all-powerful and all-loving? Why won't you answer these questions? I've asked them three times now.
He may be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful AND all-loving if he refuses to do everything in his power (which is infinite, right?) to end needless, horrible suffering. quote: You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business. That is a illogical, weak, unfalsifiable argument. Anytime you don't have an answer to a difficult question, you just throw up your hands and say "we don't understand how God works!" You seem to be very sure of how God works when one of your prayers is answered, though, or when something good happens. Funny how that is, huh?
Mike, do humans know the difference between good and evil or not? Does God know the difference between good and evil or not? quote: Wrong. The Bible says that because Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, we are "as gods", knowing what God knows. According to the Bible, the good and evil we know about is the same good and evil God knows about. Is God held to the same moral standards as humans?
A real, verifiable miracle seems like it would be a pretty big deal and would make the papers, at least. quote: Call me sheltered. Why don't you find one for me?
quote: I don't know if God exists or not, because I have not ever seen any reliable, verifiable evidence for the supernatural in any form. Additionally, I have no reason to think that, if the supernatural or God/s exist that we would be able to comprehend that being/entity in any way. So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence.
Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are? quote: Stop avoiding the question. A simple yes or no answer is all that is required.
Do you make a prediction of what the fulfilled prayer "answer" will be before hand, or do you retrofit the "answer" to the prayer afterwords? quote: Right. Do you do it?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Mike you avoided addressing my analogy:
quote: If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant? And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day? Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike? Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Do all Christians completely agree on how to follow the teachings of Jesus?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Look, you are the one who chased me down in another thread to come over here. This line of conversation is your making. Your complaints of "being attacked" ring quite hollow, mike.
You are avoiding the tough questions by falling back on the "mysterious ways" business. quote: But when your prayers are answered, you believe that it's God working, right? God isn't unfathomable to you then, right? Sorry, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot point to answered prayers and say "God is definitwely at work here! See what wonderful things he does!", and then when something bad is going on say, "Gee, we just don't understand how God works." That is post hoc reasoniong and wishful thinking bias at it's most blatant.
Why don't you find one for me? quote: I have seen testimonies of people who say that their dead pet came back as a ghost to save them from a fire. I have seen testimonies of people who say that they have been abducted by aliens. Are these the kinds of testimonies you are talking about?
So, god is not impossible. God is, however, highly improbable based upon all available evidence. quote: Science has a say on evidence, though, and probabilities. I'm also incorporating my non-experience of those "special feelings" of being connected to the Almighty that believers talk about in my personal conclusion.
quote: What evidence is that?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Mike, do all Christians completely agree on how to follow Christ'a teachings?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
The point is that, statistically, it appears that we live in an indifferent universe. quote: Irrelevant to the argument. (and wrong) Please stop trying to avoid questions and distract from the argument being made.
quote: No, says MATH. Are you going to deny that math is valid now, as well as logic, as well as reality?
quote: ...and God seems to have made the universe with the appearance of being indifferent if you look at the MATH, the statistics. If you were being mugged and beaten, and a dozen big police officers walked by and didn't help you, wouldn't you be kind of confused, angry, and indignant? And wouldn't you be even more annoyed at the police captain, when you went to complain, who told you that those police officers really WERE helping you, you just couldn't tell how, or pointed to the fact that they helped somebody else just the other day? Do we know the difference between good and evil or not, Mike? Is god held to at least the same standards of moral responsibility as we humans are? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-18-2004 08:22 AM
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