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Author | Topic: What if Jesus and Satan were real? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Blue Inactive Member |
No real choice, no freedom. It is a choice actually. You choose to die or live. Everything is a choice.Sincerely Blue
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Blue Inactive Member |
The serpent being on the belly is a judgement, this is pretty clear.
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent deceived me, and I ate. 14 The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall [d]bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel. I am not sure why we are continuing this conversation we are just going into circles. I've stated my argument, and it is pretty well accepted in Jewish and Christian communities. IT is also very apparent in the old testament that the Jew was well aware of the evil being Satan (Ezekiel 28, Job 1). I will also say they were well aware of the christian practice, at the time a Jewish practice, of an internal adversary. Edited by Blue, : Add Edited by Blue, : Add Edited by Blue, : AddSincerely Blue
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Blue Inactive Member |
Catholic Scientist writes: Actually, they wrote it as Ha-Satan, with that definite article. It means "the adversary" and it is not the name of someone. Yes "Ha-Satan" is used in certain places but "Satan" is used to refer to "the being" in Job 1:6.
Satan Catholic Scientist writes: His opinions on the matter are far more valuable than yours, especially considering that you incorrectly think that Ha-Satan is a name instead of realizing it is a title. No he has an opinion due to an interpretation, which all people living have to interpret it. Further trusting his vantage is just that, trust. He could be just as wrong as I am. There is no more likelihood that he is right and that I am wrong, or vice versa. Further a billion/billions of people agree with my vantage as there are 2.3 billion Christians on earth.Sincerely Blue
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Blue writes:
Yes, I know, slavery in the Bible was like a ride at Disneyland.
Slavery in the Bible is worse in the usage of the word "slavery" than it is in reality. Blue writes:
I'm not arguing that God does not exist as per the Bibe. I'm arguing that if God did exist as per the Bible, He'd be the enemy.
... you are using a terrible example to argue God does not exist as per the Bible.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9626 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
quote: Science says nothing about God OR atheism.
quote:No they don't, creationists like Faith make up their own sciency sounding language. quote: That's just bizarr.
quote: Ignoring the grammatical problems with that sentence, morality IS decided by man.
quote: What an odd thing to say; I don't have to believe in nature, I can see and touch it.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Blue writes:
The serpent isn't being judged, though, uness you assume that there was a change in its circumstances.
However I would argue the serpent is a being since it is being judged. Blue writes:
The serpent wasn't being deceptive. He told the truth; they didn't die on the same day. (I find it bizarre that Bible "literalsts" insist that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days but the day Adam and Eve ate the fruit was not.)
The usage of a serpent in this story is to reflect the character of the being (deceptive).
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Blue writes:
Why would anybody choose to die?
You choose to die or live. Everything is a choice.
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Blue writes:
Your argument is accepted in parts of the Christian and Jewish communities. It's far from universal.
I've stated my argument, and it is pretty well accepted in Jewish and Christian communities. Blue writes:
We are continuing this conversation because Bible literalists have a lot of misconceptions about the Bible - conflating snakes with Satan, conflating Satan with evil, etc. - and they often assume that their interpretation is the only one. It's to your benefit to know what the alternatives are.
I am not sure why we are continuing this conversation we are just going into circles.
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Blue Inactive Member |
Really? Is that the relationship you see in Job? What I read sounds more like a wager in which Satan goes only as far as God allows. I agree. It is a wager. Satan is doing God's bidding. This is perfectly fine especially since it does fit within both of their desires. Satan wishes to convince God is not all powerful, and God wishes to convince God is all powerful. AT this point, it is a matter of the human being tempted. You just have to realize that freely choosing God is a big deal. This is how God is CHOOSING to destroy Evil. Personally I think it is because God is creating a eternity in which people freely choose to be with God. Those that choose not to be with God, they will get just that...
The question is whether the Jews believed Satan to be a personification rather than an actual being. You cannot determine this by whether or not Satan actually does things in the scripture because a given story may or may not have been interpreted literally. I am arguing that ancient Jews believed in both. They believed in "the satan" within their mind (internal struggle) and they believed in the "evil being of satan" as a deceptive being. The word satan has different meanings depending on the context of the scripture, hence the debate. Ref my prior post and the posted link. I prefer the argument that fits and answers all issues. God creating Evil as per in ringo's argument would most definitely argue God does not exist. IT does not make sense for God to create evil, and then turn around and command the created beings that he is seeking to be with eternally to not be evil (especially when you add Christ to the context). IT does make more sense that God created beings to be free, and beings of freedom make evil or good choices. And through that process evil will be destroyed. And in the end, those good beings as per God's law will live eternally with God.Sincerely Blue
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Blue Inactive Member |
Why would anybody choose to die? Ask the person choosing to commit suicide. Further it is not reasonable to presume merely insane people commit suicide. We can compare this to serial killers. Maybe it is better to think that people who choose to live are insane?Sincerely Blue
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Blue Inactive Member |
We are continuing this conversation because Bible literalists have a lot of misconceptions about the Bible - conflating snakes with Satan, conflating Satan with evil, etc. - and they often assume that their interpretation is the only one. It's to your benefit to know what the alternatives are. I have not been made aware of anything new in this forum. I am not arguing certain points because I am not aware of the other points. As you probably are aware of the points I am arguing. Further, what is the point?Sincerely Blue
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Blue writes:
That's a cop-out. We generally recognize that people who "choose" to commit suicide are not thinking rationally. They are reacting to circumstances that are often temprary. (Permanent solution to temporary problem = not rational.) ringo writes:
Ask the person choosing to commit suicide. Why would anybody choose to die? The question is: Why would anybody rationally, in the long term, choose death over life?
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 652 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
While I think there are several issues in the rest of this post, as well as some of your earlier ones, I find that other individuals are doing a fine job of countering those points and so will leave those to them. However, there is one section you typed out there that I had a question on:
I prefer the argument that fits and answers all issues. God creating Evil as per in ringo's argument would most definitely argue God does not exist. IT does not make sense for God to create evil, and then turn around and command the created beings that he is seeking to be with eternally to not be evil (especially when you add Christ to the context). IT does make more sense that God created beings to be free, and beings of freedom make evil or good choices. And through that process evil will be destroyed. And in the end, those good beings as per God's law will live eternally with God. You are stating that God made these beings good and they chose evil. But, as God is all-knowing, doesn't he already know which of his created beings will choose evil? If he does not know that they will choose evil, then he is not all-knowing and if he does know, but chooses to still create them to choose evil, then he has knowingly created evil, correct? You cannot remove the fact from your God that he/she/it is supposed to know all of the results already, so Ringo's comments that God created evil can be seen as more likely to be correct. He knowingly created Satan, even though he knew he would eventually choose to attempt to usurp him. God created him with a choice, but knew the choice he would make. This means God created satan to make that choice, it was a planned for eventuality. Let's try it this way. If someone creates a magic wand that can change things into anything it (the wand, not the human) wants, knowing that eventually the wand begins to create murderous creatures. Then this creator of the product, knowing its faults, sells it to a person, wouldn't you hold the seller responsible should the created monster kill the buyer? God is no different, he knew which individuals would choose evil and created them anyway, therefore he created evil.The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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ringo Member (Idle past 729 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Blue writes:
Are you aware that you're not the only person reading this forum? I have not been made aware of anything new in this forum. I am not arguing certain points because I am not aware of the other points. I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong. I'm trying to convince anybody else reading the forum that you're wrong. ![]()
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Blue Inactive Member |
Science says nothing about God OR atheism.
Bravo. You are correct.
No they don't, creationists like Faith make up their own sciency sounding language. Actually creationist accept modern science including evolution, the bb, string theory, and so on. I personally prefer the electric universe model, at thunderbolts.info which refutes inflation, dark energy, black holes, and bb thought in that the universe is filled with electric currents. Ultimately it depends on the creationist. Further creationist work jobs within all sorts including all fields of science. We permeate all parts of society. One example is Dr Hugh Ross.
That's just bizarr. I thought you just pointed out that Science says nothing about atheism and God?
Ignoring the grammatical problems with that sentence, morality IS decided by man. We are not writing a essay. Typically discussions don't follow exact grammatical law. Further didn't you learn in college that you can BREAK grammatical law as long as you KNOW grammatical law? I am guessing you never went to college. Probably why you have to derail the discussion with insults. ALSO there is no fact that man should decide what is moral. It is also a argument that "MAN" does decide morality. We could argue there is no evidence that God does exist and that ultimately the sum of all human thoughts and decisions are completed by man concluding man decides morality. The other argument is that God does exist and love only flows from God and that LOVE can't flow without God. We tend to argue everything came from SOMETHING instead of EVERYTHING came from NOTHING, as the atheist does argue. IT is pretty clear that in science "nothing" can't make something thus the process of science does suggest something created everything. IF you read Gen 1:1, as the first verse of creation prior to verse 3 or day 1, we see that God created the universe with all things in it including the earth. Then day 1 in verse 3, is what happened on the earth after it was created. This argument is actually being argued by Hugh Ross, and millions of others, who is a physicist. FYI: I don't give a fuck if I am using correct grammatical rules on this forum. IF you get the point great if you do not get the point, then argue the point.Sincerely Blue
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