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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pollux Member Posts: 303 Joined: |
The Bible states that God struck Bathsheba's child with it being sick for a week before dying. It seems rather harsh on the child when the adulterers were allowed to live, despite by the law they were supposed to be stoned.
Then there are the innocent 70,000 of David's subjects killed merely because God caused David to have a census of his army. It seems that even God was sickened by that slaughter He had ordered and eventually stopped it. I know that the later version in Chronicles says Satan stirred up David but Samuel is explicit in saying God did it. Are these fair actions?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We are supposed to learn from these things how the Law of God works. Our own children suffer for our sins, the people under a King suffer for his. David pleaded for them himself. When you realize that your own sins are going to cause your children to suffer it is a very horrifying thought. I think we'd all rather suffer for our own than have that happen. But it does happen. It's the way the moral law of the universe is wired. It's the same now as it is shown to be in the Bible. At least David knew he would some day see the baby who died in heaven.
But David suffered terrifically for all the consequences of his sin in the sufferings of his children. Probably worse than being stoned to death. Satan can't do anything without God's willing or allowing it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I reread it although I know it pretty well anyway, but I still don't get what you are trying to say. What I was saying is not important. I was hoping that a Christian would understand what Jesus was saying. Given our past interactions, I don't think there is much point in my injecting any of my own thoughts here. Let's leave it at that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If you're going to insult me by suggesting I don't know what Jesus is saying I think you really do have to explain to me what you meant.
ABE: By the way, I don't remember things, NN, I don't know what our history has been except that we've been at odds for some time Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
A symbol is a symbol because somebody has imposed a meaning on it. An eagle is not inherently American. It's a symbol of America because people attribute to it the qualities that they wish they had, qualities that it doesn't necessarily have in reality.
A symbol is a symbol because it shares the same content or meaning as the thing it symbolizes. Faith writes:
That "spiritual nature" is also something that you have imposed on reality, not something that is really there. The spiritual nature of the universe is unrecognized for the most part but it is real and staggeringly impressive.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
What we learn is that your God id unjust. We are supposed to learn from these things how the Law of God works.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What we learn is that your God id unjust. The thing is, He's THE God, not just my God, and that means you are also necessarily under His justice, because there is no other justice, His justice runs the universe. Literally runs it, it's the Moral Law that is sketched out in the Old Testament that determines all the events that happen on this Earth. They are too complex and interwoven for us to track with any certainty, whether on a personal or a national or a global scale, but I think it's sometimes possible to identify cause and effect in our own lives, and on a larger scale when certain trends pile up we can begin to discern how things are going to play out in the future. Although as spelled out in various biblical accounts it seems harsh to us I accept on faith that it is actually perfect justice and that believers will be able to appreciate that more completely when we're finally with Him. Those who reject Him and call Him unjust are in a sad position. Jesus would save you from it, however, if you like Him better than His Father. Which I think is ridiculous since they are One God together, but anyway.... Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
No, he's just another fictional character - and not a very plausible one at that. You've made up your own caricature of the Biblical God, who's just an amalgamation of characters made up by a multitude of authors anyway. The thing is, He's THE God, not just my God.... If there is a real God, he/she/it is nothing like what you imagine. And what you call "justice" is worthy of nothing but contempt.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Unfortunately your view is shared by a lot of people here, I hope not everyone.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Unfortunately your view is shared by too many people in the world. We need to keep pointing out how you're wrong. Unfortunately your view is shared by a lot of people here, I hope not everyone.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
According to Calvinist theology we are afflicted with a sin nature that forces us to sin.
According to Calvinist theology only those God chooses - a choice we cannot influence in any way whatsoever - will be freed from this sin nature According to Calvinist theology our punishment will be infinite. A just God would cure us and punish the person who afflicted us - which would be himself. No just God would inflict infinite punishement for finite crimes - what would be the point. It doesn’t work as deterrence, it goes beyond retribution and no reformation is possible. Calvinism does not propose a just God.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Calvinism is simply the truest interpretation of what the bible says. The sin nature is implied throughout the Bible and ought to be recognized even in our own personal experience it seems to me.
You disagree of course. As usual you present it in such a way as to deny personal responsibility. We always have a choice at our own level, we can't know anything about God's level except what the Bible tells us, and to let it deprive us of personal choice is a big mistake. I feel reassured knowing that whatever happens to me has a just cause even if I don't understand it, and that I can talk to God about it and maybe begin to understand it. The idea that things just happen randomly is not at all reassuring, just makes us pawns of incomprehensible and unpredictable and unrectifiable forces. After this life our destiny is sealed, yes, but during this life we have lots of opportunities for changing in response to affliction, for reformation, for turning away from its cause, which means it does work as deterrence. You don't know if you are chosen or not so what does it matter? If you have a desire to be freed from the sin nature you can be freed from it, that's what matters. If you have no such desire so much the less should it matter to you. I think what you are missing is that our sins ARE infinite because they are sins against an infinite and holy God. We're made in the image of God, which is no light thing. Our sins had the "power" to cause the devastation and wreckage of the whole planet in the Flood of Noah and are building up to the final destruction of the planet. God takes us very seriously and takes sin extremely seriously. The whole point of the Bible is to teach us about God and how His justice and mercy work. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: That really doesn’t address any of the points I was making.
quote: If we are - intentionally - afflicted with a condition that causes us to choose badly then we can reasonably claim diminished responsibility and hold that the person responsible for our affliction is to blame.
quote: Being the pawn of a monstrous evil hardly sounds better to me. But if that’s what you like go on believing it.
quote: There you go denying predestination again. According to Calvinism our destiny was sealed before we were even born.
quote: God, the ultimate special snowflake, clutching his pearls over the things he made us do. It’s not an attractive picture at all. If God chose to make us all sinners, there is no justice in his taking offence at our sins. Let alone infinite offence.
quote: According to the Bible, God is doing all that. Not our sins. Not that it would make much difference since God would still be fully responsible even if the latter were true - according to Calvinist theology.
quote: Of course given Calvinist theology the logical conclusion is that our sins are just a pretext to create an illusion of justice. But if you think that the point of the Bible is to teach that God is a monster of injustice and cruelty I will leave you to that belief.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are making God into an image of human beings rather than the other way around.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I’m not making God into anything. I’m just pointing out the implications of Calvinist theology. If Calvinism makes God out to be a monster that’s none of my doing.
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