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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: No, that is not what I said. This is what you said:
Faith writes: What is predestined from God's point of view may be changeable from ours, a matter of choice from ours, because we are blind to God's will. What we choose will be His will but we won't know that until it is firmly established. I'll say it again because you appear to be hard of reasoning. If god predestines each of our lives, we can't change anything. If he doesn't, we can. It's binary. If we can only 'choose' what he has predestined, there is no choice.
Just think a little, Tangle, it isn't THAT hard. I think my problem is in thinking that the garbage you write has any discernible, rational meaning. As for being hard, you bet it is, only Humpty Dumpty could fathom your thinking.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: From our point of view we are not restricted in our freedom of choice by God's predestination. Period. Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: If you could actually show my case to be wrong I wouldn't stick to it. But since you haven’t even attempted to answer it, it seems pretty clear that you can’t.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... ll you say may be true but what that means is that Christians will not obey the law because it contradicts God's Law. We will either find ways to avoid it or if we can't and are met by it head-on we will have to suffer the consequences. ... What you mean is that it contradicts your beliefs. As noted before, not all Christians hold this belief, only fundamentalist Christians, and your continued use of the part for the whole is a logical fallacy. Curiously, what you say is true for everyone -such as protesters and people of other faiths - that they have the right to disobey the law if it contradicts their beliefs. If you believe the law is wrong you have the right to protest and and petition the government to change it. That doesn't make you special, just someone at odds with the law. This is also part of amendment 1.
... That's the Reality, RAZD. That isn't exactly freedom of religion. But I don't think society cares about freedom of religion any more. Oh maybe for Muslims and Satanists. Wrong. The Reality is that if the law applies equally to Christians, Muslims and Satanists, then that is, by definition, freedom of religion. Freedom of religion does not apply just to Christianity, it applies to all beliefs - equally. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Fine, it's a particular branch of Christianity that will be challenged if that makes such a big difference to you but everything I said about that is true. Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings they will have to go out of business or pay fines and so on. As I said, some freedom of religion. You can skip all the pedantic stuff about freedom of religion applying across the board because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. If there are other religions with a similar position that run wedding based businesses that could get challenged, then we aren't alone, but at the moment we seem to be alone and you really didn't say anything that applies to the reality of the situation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh your case isn't wrong, based on your premises it's completely right and you should stand on it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
You haven’t challenged any of the premises (which are mainly Calvinist theology anyway). I don’t think that there is anything else that is all controversial in there.
But if you want to challenge any of them, please go ahead. Just make sure that what you are challenging really is a premise - because you are very likely to get it wrong.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings ... Which would be a law that established a federal religion over other religions and beliefs. Last time I checked that is unconstitutional.
... As I said, some freedom of religion. ... You just don't get it: You have just as much freedom of religion as everybody else, regardless of belief. No more, no less. The fact that you feel entitled to more than other beliefs is your problem (check your privilege), because you aren't.
... because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. ... Based on some very small-minded interpretations in a fundamentalist sect, yes, and that makes it your problem, not anyone else's. You created the problem by trying to impose your silly beliefs on other people (here gay people), and then you cry and moan that you are being persecuted and attacked for your beliefs when you are stopped. Wacko. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are the one who doesn't get it but there's no point in saying it again.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Unless the Supreme Court decides to protect Christian wedding-related businesses from being sued and prosecuted for refusing to serve gay weddings they will have to go out of business or pay fines and so on. As I said, some freedom of religion. You can skip all the pedantic stuff about freedom of religion applying across the board because it's this particular Christian branch that's going to suffer because we oppose gay marriage on biblical grounds and won't compromise. If there are other religions with a similar position that run wedding based businesses that could get challenged, then we aren't alone, but at the moment we seem to be alone and you really didn't say anything that applies to the reality of the situation. Assuming we are discussing the baker who recently was ruled in his favor by SCOTUS, I agree with their decision. I've offered just such a scenario in past discussions on EvC and always knew that one day a court case like this would come out. It was simply an inevitability, if you ask me. I don't think it is right to force people with sincerely held religious convictions to marry a homosexual couple if it conflicts with their beliefs. But there are limitations to that -- namely, in this instance, that the baker was not declining all services to the couple on account that they were gay. His stipulation was that he would not make a wedding cake but offered similar services in place of that. Now, had he refused them service outright on account of their homosexuality, the ruling would have been much different. I am hugely in favor of private businesses exercising their right to refuse service, BUT if you are serving the general public, you cannot outright discriminate against people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and so on... and I also agree with that, that such protections are in place. So with that, if you owned a store would you openly not serve gay people on account of their sexual orientation and just pay the fines? It's also more than fines, we're talking civil litigation. You could be sued for tens of thousands of dollars for civil rights violations."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hyro, I guess you missed it but all the wedding business owners were clearly refusing service for gay marriage and nothing else; it never had anything to do with gays as such, who receive all the other services available. It is not about discriminating against persons, it is about gay marriage, period. and I keep saying that myself in these discussions.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1434 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Oh I get what you are saying, but you're just wrong.
Religious Freedom does not give you the right to make up restrictions for other people, it gives you the right to practice your religion at home, places of worship, etcetera. Bakers and florists that provide services to the general public need to abide by established laws regarding discrimination against minorities etc. Doing otherwise makes those laws pointless. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No RAZD, my religion is a life commitment, it isn't to be restricted by the world to wherever they want it to be confined, it is to be lived every day everywhere. So again, Christians will no longer be able to run wedding businesses, and if we are put in the position of being required to endorse gay marriage in any other way we will have to take the punishment.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
But that isn't what the Constitution protects. You can live it every day every where until the cows come home but you can't dictate what is protected under "freedom of religion". ... my religion is a life commitment....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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